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The term British Isles
The term British Isles is a contentious issue. In order to better facilitate discussion of this issue, without swamping other matters, there is a specific talk page for matters relating to the name of this article. Your cooperation with keeping name-related matters on that page would be appreciated by other editors. Please remember that article talk pages are provided only to facilitate improvements to the article. Editors uncertain about the use of talk pages should read WP:TALK and WP:NOT#FORUM.
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Contents

Pretanic Islands and Britanniae

The earliest known names for the islands come from copies of ancient Greek writings.

These texts may have been used as a source by later writers but it is a simple fact that there are no originals and there are no copies.

Ancient Greek refers to a period until 146 BC. This is different to people who wrote in greek such as Ptolemy, a Roman citizen, born and bred in Roman Egypt. Indeed all the greek terms in the article, Ρρεττανοι, Πρετανικαι νησοι etc originate from the Roman Empire.

When the protection is lifted I propose the above sentence is reworded.

The earliest known names for the islands come from Roman writings Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Roman writings in Greek. So, when you say 146 BC as the end point for "Ancient Greek", do you mean January 1st or December 31st? Or indeed, a date inbetween? We need to know this so as to be able to correct the tens of thousands of articles that presumably make this idiotic and totally unforgivable blunder. ðarkuncoll 23:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I believe the years used to start in March? Anyway, I was foolish enough to use wikipedia Ancient Greece as my source. Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
And according to the article the Greeks/Romans included Iceland and/or western Norway, possibly also the Friesian Islands in their descriptions so the ancient term doesn't map onto the modern term exactly. Then, after the Romans, there was a gap of about 1500 years before the term was resurrected during the period of the Tudor conquest of Ireland. As Nicholas Canny puts it in his book, the term is "politically loaded". 89.129.143.60 (talk) 12:05, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
The Romans included Thule in the BI, but there's no evidence this meant Iceland at the time - and the inclusion of this factoid in the article is another example of how it has been derailed to suit that anti-BI brigade. It could have meant the Shetlands. It later times its meaning changed, but this was much, much later. The term BI in Latin was resurrected in the early 16th century, long before the Tudor reconquest of Ireland, and by Europeans with no pro-English motivations. ðarkuncoll 12:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(point of order) - Lucian Sunday, propose away. The article can still be edited while it's protected. Make a proposal here on the talk page, and if there's consensus I (or another admin) will make the change. Waggers (talk) 12:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

"The Romans included Thule in the BI, but there's no evidence this meant Iceland at the time ..." Six days sailing north of Britain and close to the Arctic circle, according to Strabbo. You're right, they could have meant Norway. "... inclusion of this factoid ..." Don't want the history of the term discussed - or the history discussed only on your terms?
Back onto topic, this seems like a minor, matter-of-fact change - even if some dislike accuracy being added to the article. (different IP user to the one above) --78.152.255.20 (talk) 18:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Don't the earliest names come from copies of Ancient Greek writings? Pytheas etc.? Correct me if I'm wrong. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 14:04, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
Pytheas's work no longer exists. From Pytheas#Notes Strabo, like Diodorus Siculus, quotes Pytheas through Poseidonius.
Lucian Sunday (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

<deident>While I've no objection to the change, I should point out that ancient Greek is different to Ancient Greeks (As highlighted by the original poster having to pipe his link for Ancient Greek to Ancient Greece). --Narson ~ Talk • 10:44, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I should explain that I piped the link Ancient Greek (Ancient Greece) as the current version does this. According to WP Ancient Greek refers to a period until 301 BC. Lucian Sunday (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

@Lucian, I realise Pytheas' work no longer exists, but what do we then call the works derived therefrom? Copies may not be the best word. What is? Derivative works? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

This article section is an example of how The wiki article could be phrased (as well as providing some insight on Wonky Scotland!. Lucian Sunday (talk) 19:37, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I knew about the reason for wonky Scotland, but where does that article give an example of suitable phrasing? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Its nice to know that someone knows the reason. I would suggest

The only coherent, though often deficient source for knowlege of the (British) Islands that has come down to us from the most flourishing period of the Empire, is the map of Ptolemy, the result of a combination of the lines of roads and of the the coasting expeditions during the first century of Roman occupation. One great fault, however, has crept into the map by his having made use of a totally different source, namely the astronomical fixations of lattitude executed by Pytheas

Lucian Sunday (talk) 19:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Shelta spoken in America

The article states that there are 86,000 Shelta speakers worldwide, mainly in America. The article does not give any more details nor does he cite that assertion. I did not realise there were so many Irish Travellers who had immigrated to America.--jeanne (talk) 13:40, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

If there's no reference then either have a look for one yourself, or tag the content with "citation needed" then come back in a week or two and delete it if no-one has given a reference to support the content. 81.32.182.214 (talk) 14:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
I have found a reference. It is www.christusrex.com/www1/pater/JPN-Shelta.html When the page is no longer under protection, I shall add it.--jeanne (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Ethnologue is the usual "ready-made" citation for these kind of things. 86,000 is cited in their entry for Shelta. --89.19.91.84 (talk) 18:43, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Ethnologue says 86k speakers with 6k in Ireland and the rest in the UK and USA. It doesn't say that they're "mainly" in the USA. The majority may be in the UK, no? The other site doesn't open for me. I get a page not found error. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:43, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe so many Irish Travellers are in America. It's more likely they are in the UK.--jeanne (talk) 19:52, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
As above, it doesn't matter what you find hard to believe. According to http://www.language-museum.com/s/shelta.php there are 50k Shelta speakers in the USA, 30k in the UK, 6k in Ireland. Same statistic is shown on the www.christusrex.com site. I can't speak to the reliability of either of those sites. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:10, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe because the article on the Irish Travellers fails to mention the presence of so many in America. This article also fails to do so. Therefore, one must question the reliability of the sites you have listed. Note I said question not deny.--jeanne (talk) 08:17, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't vouch for the reliability of the sites I mentioned. I don't know anything about them. My only point was that your beliefs are unimportant compared to references. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Point taken.--jeanne (talk) 13:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Last Night of the Proms

In a fine example showing just how imprecise the term "British Isles" can be, the Last Night of the Proms broadcast from London, Glasgow, Cardiff and Belfast on BBC1 on 13 September 2008 included songs sung by Bryn Terfel. Wearing a specially made suit displaying the flags of the United Kingdom, Wales, Scotland, England and the republic of Ireland, it was introduced as a Folk-Song Medley out of ditties from all four corners of the British Isles: The Turtle Dove sings for England, we’re on the Scottish waters of Loch Lomond before hearing the Welsh Cariad cyntaf and joining sweet Molly Malone from Ireland. [1]. The last of these was referred to in the program as coming from Dublin. Bazza (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Again, use or don't use BI wherever yas want on Wikipedia. But, this article's name remains as is. GoodDay (talk) 13:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
You didn't post the part of the intro. that most clearly points to the 'problem' with the term "BI": The medley is introduced as "genuinely British traditional." So that, here, the 'four corners of the British Isles,' = British. Nuclare (talk) 02:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I saw the proms too - it was fully in line with the standard definition of "GB and the island of Ireland", but they used "Ireland" in its geographical sense, and used GB as three other "coners"! It is correct in a sense, but it's a mix of the geographical and the 'cultural' (or 'political'). It basically should be "five corners of the British Isles" if they do it without mixing. But the BBC has no singular approach with this, as we often see.--Matt Lewis (talk) 15:53, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Mustn't forget the IoM and les isles de la Manche. The British Isles must have at least six corners thus proving that it cannot, in fact, exist. Sarah777 (talk) 09:07, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Maybe they'll find them in CERN right next to Higgs boson! Sarah777 (talk) 09:10, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
The title remains, do as ya'll wish with the content. GoodDay (talk) 13:13, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you GoodDay.--jeanne (talk) 13:19, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, all I'll say is it was also asserted with the same confidence that the Irish people could not survive on their own unless they were ruled by the British. Actually, that's not all I will say. This name is going nowhere because it represents a uniquely British nationalist perspective of the subservient place of the Irish people in this world. Irish people, as made clear in the removal of British rule from most of Ireland, reject this British nationalist view of Ireland as a member of their "British Isles". Those people wishing to impose this name on us are wilfully resisting that Irish reality. They fail, intentionally it must be added, to grasp Irishness, in particular the principal experience that has shaped modern Irishness: British colonial rule. We have tasted freedom. We are not going back. It's over. Let me, therefore, assert: this name, like countless others in world history, will be changed because its unique purpose is to offend a large amount of people. The name is consequently experiencing a steep decline across academia, media and political circles, as detailed extensively in these archives. Most people do not wish to offend and simply want to get through life with as little hassle as possible. For that reason, people like this assume power in democratic, market-driven societies: they work with people, not go out of their way to offend them and lose business/listeners/readers. That is the real reason this article title will be changed. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 08:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Or alternatively, people will go out of their way to be offended as an excuse to soapbox. Please, for political discourse we have news channels and plenty of websites. --Narson ~ Talk • 09:46, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
The title remains, do as yas wish with the content. GoodDay (talk) 13:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

"May" and "offensive"

So there seems to be support with references for "offensive" and no support with references for "may". Can the page now be unprotected and have "may" removed? 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:33, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we please have both "may" and "offensive" removed. And simply keep it "where many people find the term objectionable". Repeating "offensive" and "objectionable" is a tautology in this context. "Objectionable" is what we mean, rather than offensive. --78.152.239.22 (talk) 18:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Whatever makes it easier. GoodDay (talk) 18:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Once again: I am distinctly and unequivocally offended to be classed as British, as the term "British Isles" does when it claims Ireland. That's not my history, and they are not my people. Stop trying to impose the myths and nation-making projects of British nationalists upon Ireland, upon Irish people, and upon our own distinct experience of British occupation. We suffered precisely for our difference, the British dominated us based upon embracing that difference. Now, however, we are all, it seems, happy Brits. It's so contrived and ahistorical that it's pathetic. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 03:29, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Again, no more soapboxing, please. --Narson ~ Talk • 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
But the references not only say objectionable, but mostly say offensive. "Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles'", "In an attempt to coin a term that avoided the 'British Isles' - a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities....", "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable, "...the British Isles (a term which is itself offensive to Irish Nationalists)", "The British Isles does include the island of Ireland although the adjective British used in this context is often found offensive by Irish Nationalists".
And please, don't anybody start with calling "nationalists" a minority when the main party in government in ROI describes itself as "Republican". 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Seeing as the Republic of Ireland is a "republic", it's not likely that the main party in government would refer to itself as "monarchist"! The term "Nationalist" does not necessarily mean "Republican". Look up both words in the dictionary.--jeanne (talk) 08:28, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Arn't those sources saying we should use many? Personally I'd stick with neither may or offensive and just go with objectionable. --Narson ~ Talk • 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
@jeanne. The meanings in an Irish context are clear. In Ireland republicans are all nationalists even if not all nationalists are republicans. Also a recent leader of Fine Gael, the main opposition party, made a speech to clarify that they were nationalists too - in case anyone thought otherwise. And I have a dictionary, thanks.
@ Narson. As for "many", yes, the sources typically use "many" or "often". 79.155.245.81 (talk) 08:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I do realise that in Ireland all republicans are nationalists. The point I had made, you have just stated, namely not all nationalists are republican. I was only joking about the dictionary. It's patently obvious that you own a dictionary- probably more than one, I daresay. --jeanne (talk) 08:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Exactly, so if the two biggest political parties claim they are nationalist in one way or another (i.e. republican or not) then there's no way to argue that "nationalist" is some odd minority in Ireland. This leaves the references saying "many" and "offensive" unambiguous and unarguable. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:37, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
But, you are referring to politicians, not the man in the street. Honestly, do you really think the average Dubliner gives two s..tes what geographical term is used?--jeanne (talk) 11:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
We are probably getting into a folly by trying to talk aout the people using political parties. The turnout at the last election was 67% and the Fianna Fail got less than half of that. Even if you add in the Fine Gael, you are still only at 68.9, which still gets less than 50% of the population. If a source says nationalists, we don't synthesise that to mean everyone. Perhaps, if the sources say Nationalists find it offensive, we should say that Nationalists find it offensive? --Narson ~ Talk • 14:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah, now that sounds like a good solution. Nobody can argue the point that Nationalists do find it offensive. The problem was in the word "Irish", which implied that the majority of Irish people-even those non-political- found it offensive.--jeanne (talk) 12:44, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one is synthesizing "nationalists" to mean everyone. The term is "many". I'm simply saying that the previous argument that "nationalists" meant almost no-one is unsupportable whereas an argument that "nationalists" means lots of people is easily supported. I've never argued majorities because there are no references, but even jeanne's "less than 50%" is still many. As for saying that "only" nationalists find it offensive, that's misleading and unsupported. The term is still described in reference as "often" offensive and offensive to "many" Irish, let alone the places where it's described as objectionable. Simply removing "may" from the current introduction gives a simple clean and supported text. All the maneuverings are apparently driven by some personal agenda. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 14:13, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Of course, one could provide citation that "The great majority of Irish people are nationalists to a greater or lesser degree...", from a survey in 2006 (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2006/04/02/story13121.asp). That might support "many", and then we don't need to over-politicize things. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 14:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Hold on. This is more of the same old sh!t from the same auld suspects. The Irish are 'nationalists'- but the British? the English? No, they are of course far above such things. Duh. We've seen it all before. My status as an Irishman objects to being told I am not Irish. When my forefathers throughout the centuries resisted English and British rule, they were not 'nationalists'(a term only traceable in its modern form to 18th century Europe): they were Irishmen sharing a common culture and a common interest. Would that some day we could be Irish again and not simply 'nationalist' when we refuse to be 'British'. It must be the water over there. There's something wrong with you. Many Irish people, very very many Irish people object to, and are offended by, this absolutely fu@king ridiculous British imperialist term used by eurosceptic troglodytes from the dark ages. You're annoying me now.86.42.119.12 (talk) 14:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Who's annoying you? Whether or not the Irish are nationalists has no bearing or relevance to whether or not the English are. It's apparent from the citations I've provided that most Irish people are nationalists and it's apparent from citations that many people have provided that many people object to, or find offensive, the term "British Isles" when applied to Ireland. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 15:11, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Mo dhuine above is annoying me with her raiméis that 'many' might imply 'most'- "The problem was in the word "Irish", which implied that the majority of Irish people-even those non-political- found it offensive". Jesus, Mary and Joseph- I thought my grasp of the cursed foreign spleen was lacking. The vast majority of the population of this island is clearly 'nationalist'; if they were not one would see calls for a return to British rule. There are no such calls. The ceolán above is attempting to soften reality by replacing the word Irish with the word 'nationalist' because she refuses to accept that the vast majority of the population of this island has rejected the British nationalist pipedream of a nation covering their beloved "British Isles". Are the English and British 'nationalists' because they do not want to be ruled by a foreign country? Nope, 'nationalism' is for the lower, irrational sort. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 15:24, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

<reduce indent> "Most" may very well be true but there is reference for "many". You can read "many" however you want to. As for "nationalists", the original argument was that "nationalists" were only a few of the population. I'm afraid it was me who pulled up a reference to show that it's the vast majority, so please calm down. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 15:39, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I'm concerned, you can remove any mention of the Republic of Ireland from this article (maybe even the entire island of Ireland). But the name of this article stays, as it's at least a historical name. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

So why is "many nationalists find it obectionable" never allowed? Or anything but "many find it objectionable and offensive" It is why we have to defend the tempering word "may".

I wouldn't even accept "many nationalists" based on the evidence we have. We simply must use other words. ON WIKIPIPEDIA, WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PROVE WHAT WE APPROPRIATE INTO THE TEXT, OTHERWISE WE MUST AT VERY LEAST MAKE IT CLEAR IT IS THE OPINION FROM THE SOURCE! We only have a few refs and they are not enough per WP:REDFLAG in WP:verifiability to prove anything!!! And the WP:weight we give the dissent in the intro (and bold refs etc) is totally unjustified with the language we use. We show nothing of how it is used every day.

What's the point of going on about one word anyway, when we have been told to address the other problems in the intro too? The Irish politicians line needs addressing too (a 1947 document and a rather unclear spokesman are the sources we have for that) . See this proposal from above for ideas. It needs some history in it too. Any ideas? --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Typical from MattLewis. He wouldn't even accept "many nationalists" although there are reputable sources and he has not a single countervailing source. There is no point discussing with someone who refuses to respect basic policy of verifiability. Formal Process starts as soon as I can find how to do it. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 11:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Edit request

Y'all are clogging my watchlist: {{editprotected}} Please remove the word 'may' from the second sentence of the article. Filtering the noise from this section and the "May" section above, it looks like there's pretty good consensus that it is a poor compromise.—eric 17:21, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Is this a joke? There is no consensus of the kind! "Filtering the noise"? Does that mean completely ignoring one point of view? You need to read more than the the two sections above - which are dominated by a notiorious banned user's IP (not that anyone cares about that - a disgraceful fact, I'm afraid).
What do you have without the word "may"? The word "many" on its own!!
I, as others do, object to the removal of the compromising word "may", unless the wildly OTT line "many find it offensive" text is re-written in a fairer way. If you can be bothered to read the ongoing debate over the last months - that is what the score is. Don't let the admin-favourite User:Gold heart run the show whatever you do. He's been given the keys to Wikipedia, but he can't make a consensus on his own. --Matt Lewis (talk) 17:48, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
N Declined. Please use {{editprotected}} only after consensus is achieved.  Sandstein  18:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Matthew, please desist from this relentless paranoia. You are sinking further into the abyss every time you accuse editors here of being somebody else. It's a sad spectacle, one which is very tiresome, and probably against a number of wikipedia rules. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
'May' is a weasel word; the evidence is for 'many' people being offended. It is the above mentioned editor who is refusing to accept this. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 21:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
Ditto from here (and I'm not GoldHeart). "May" is an unsupported weasel word. References abundantly show that "many" find the term "offensive". They've been listed, highlighted, backed up, again and again and again and the only response is unsupported assertations of OTT, POV, etc. The references are there, they're solid, they're unambiguous. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 09:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
"abundantly" in bold is bluster and bullsh*t. Unfortunately people read it and believe it, whether it is from an IP account or not. --Matt Lewis (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Q) Are there many sources for the word "many"?
  • A) No - they dry up after a hard-found few.
  • Q) Do we have a right to expect many sources for contentious line written as authoritatively as this (where the very words are appropriated into the text)?
  • A) Yes, of course we do: WP:REDFLAG in WP:verifiability, and WP:weight (regarding the intro), demand it.
  • Q) Do possibly all the people who insist on "many" (especially) and "offensive" (in particular) often unashamedly express a hang up with 'the British'?
  • A) As far as I can see, without doubt.
  • Q) Do people ignore this article because they are sick to death of it?
  • A) Yes - people have said so.

We have been told to deal with all the problems with the introduction if we the article unlocked.--Matt Lewis (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Are there sources? Yes, there are several unchallenged sources of this highest order. As for the idea that this is a "contentious" idea, there isn't a single reference to suggest that it's contentious. As for whether the people who support "many" and "offensive" have a hang up with the British, it doesn't matter, the references stand anyway. Are people sick of unsupported assertions from people whose only argument is IDONTLIKEIT, yes. I'm gonna call for a formal process again. This business of people with no evidence asserting things again and again and again is just too much. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 11:13, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you sign in first? Using "many" in the way you insist upon is contentious is the extreme! I don't like it because it flies in the face of all of Wikipedia's policy, guidelines and principles. To prevent improvement from happening to this article, you keep demanding the opposite of improvement - more extremity through the removal of "may". It is this clear stonewalling of progress that has got to stop!
Nobody challenges Kearney's context when he chooses to use the word "many" - be we can't appropriate his context! He goes to use the term "British Isles" himself for present-day Ireland. We nave NO real world examples (why not?), and another source specifies "nationalists" (again in the writer's context). Pollock was a polemicist promoting "the Atlantic Isles" - that has to be taken into account (if you take Wikipedia seriously that it). What is left? It makes no difference that the few we have are academic presses. Academic presses never stop rolling, and you are unadvanced in academia if you haven't published: it's part of the career.
When I fist looked at this I honestly expected to find many sources backing up all the anger I saw - but they simply do not exist in anything like the intensity shown by a small goup of people on Wikikpedia. They also surprised me in their small number, and then I started to notice then how much the term is actually used. So we show all the problems and criticisms of the term in another cleverer guideline-based way (like I've suggested recently above, and in various forms previously - always to screams of "pathetic British POV"!). There should not be a problem here, but this article is simply being used as an attack dog, mostly by socks and IP's.--Matt Lewis (talk) 11:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Why don't you cite a single source that using "many" is extreme? Ah, yes, you say it yourself...there are no sources to cite, it's just that YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Nobody is challenging these authors because what they are saying is common knowledge. As for socks (I'm not) and IPs, it's Wikipedia policy that IPs have as many rights as usernames. After all, User:Matt Lewis could actually be Angela Merkel. Wikipedia doesn't have to care who you are, just that you can provide verifiable sources. I do, Matt Lewis doesn't. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 12:44, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't have to provide a diametrically opposite 'counter-quote' for something that is already red-flagged by verifiability and doesn't remotely pass due weight!
How was your holiday is Spain by the way? What gets me on top of everything else is that you so easily lie. 86.42 above is Gold heart (not Wikipeire, or the same person as him, as I first thought) and you are Wotapolaver. It's fully provable but I've had my fill with all that lately (so you are lucky aren't you? But I wouldn't push it..). In less than two weeks you can do what you want here. I'll have a proposal for this article's introduction before then that will be so fairly balanced and inclusive of article content, that it will truly show the inner valuelessness of Wikipedia is if it ends up denigrated by IP's and un-voted-for by everyone else. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I'll ask this again, IP.79 & IP.86 why are you both so afraid to sign-in? Even I'm beginning to become suspicious. This refusal to sign-in, is getting annoying. GoodDay (talk) 13:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
It is none of your business whether I sign in. You still assert that something has been red-flagged. Please provide any reference to support this. I might as well red-flag that gravity exists but I wouldn't find too many reputable sources to back me up. You're in a similar situation. You have your opinion but no sources. Your opinion is worthless. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 13:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, until you both sign-in (as you've no excuse not to), I personally shall no longer respond to both of you. GoodDay (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
"Do we have a right to expect many sources for contentious line written as authoritatively as this (where the very words are appropriated into the text)?" Matt, name a number that will satisify you and I will produce that number of references. What are your criteria? Do they need the words "many" and "objectionable" in them or would a different phrasing with the same meanign satisify you (e.g. some sources will say that "many in Ireland find the term objectionable" another may say that "Irish people find the term objectionable" would both of these satisify you? If you are unwilling to propose some criteria that would satisify you, it can only be concluded that you are here to troll and/or push your narrow and unsubstantiated view on the rest of the world.
Before I undertake this endeavour, I would however suggest that you familiarise yourself with WP:VERIFY as I don't think that you yet quite understand it.
To "GoodDay" - when you stop hiding behind a made-up name, then - and only then - are you allowed to lecture anyone on anonymity. Read WP:AGF and understand that on in site we ALL contribute anonymously. (A different contributor to the above.) --62.24.204.7 (talk) 17:30, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
To IP 62; not good enough. GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Lazy 62 (a cybercafe IP if ever I saw one) - nobody is saying the term is not without its problems! Have an actual read of this - my proposal from above. What on earth is wrong with an approach like that? (apart from not covering any historical info - but the current intro lacks that anyway). You pontificate: "If you are unwilling to propose some criteria that would satisify you, it can only be concluded that you are here to troll" - why not read the prior debate before spouting off like that? I positively encourage you to go looking for new sources (as many as you can) - but you should know that the ones presented now took a good while to compile. You might think the internet is brimming with signs of active objection or offense, but it very much is not. --Matt Lewis (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Irish people, as a rule, avoid giving names to English people. I, for example, walked back from Super Valu this morning and I had to pass Gallow's Hill, so called because somebody gave names in 1798 and, well, the rest is history. This morning, like every other morning, it was not lost on me. I felt the terror of that time as I looked up. It's fine for you lads in mother England. We live here. With your ideas about what we should be, you don't get the significance of what, and where, we actually are. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 22:08, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Again, irrellevent soapboxing. --Narson ~ Talk • 22:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Again, you do not make the same points to your friends above who have several issues with IPs, despite the fact that IPs have an equal right to be here according to wikipedia policy. That is not soapboxing? Or is it just that it appeals to your preferences? And we won't say anything about the breaches of wikipedia policy by those posters when they allege dishonesty, impersonation and other acts. Have you even bothered to listen to that Matt Lewis chap with his paranoid ramblings that breach wikipedia policy here and elsewhere? No, that's grand by you, isn't it. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 22:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
If Matt started moaning on about IRA bombings or some clap trap to get sympathy for his POV, I'd tell him to quit soapboxing too. We do not need Anglo-Irish history rehashed on this page, go find a web forum if you want that, just stick to the article here. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Bold

I have been following the discussion of the last few weeks and contributing on occasion, mainly to try and stimulate discussion towards middle ground. One thing is clear, and that is that there is no solutions that are going to make everyone happy. But my interpretation - as someone with little personal interest - of the a fair compromise, with regards to the lead, is:

The term British Isles is controversial in relation to Ireland,[4] where many people [5] find the term objectionable; the Irish government also discourages its usage.[6]

I'm going to be bold and make this change and hope that, while its unlikely to be anyone's preferred solution, it does reflect the spirit of most of the sources. It also more-or-less treads the middle ground between the disparate opinions expressed above. There is a pretty good chance someone will revert this to their preferred version, and I certainly will not be warring over it. However, I would hope that enough of the contributors would sense that this is the best compromise, and marginalize those who continue to push for one extreme or the other. If we can settle on this as an acceptable compromise in the meantime, then that would give a basis for discussing an entire rewrite, like that proposed by Matt above. Rockpocket 23:17, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that Rockpocket. I had some concerns that many might sound like majority or some other term, but reading it in that sentence, it seems to be just right. --Narson ~ Talk • 00:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
In a way it actually sounds starker and slightly harsher to me (the ambiguity of many!!), but I think its a step in the right direction: any succeeding change is a huge step in fact, so I'll certainly back it up by putting it back if it's reverted. Effectively we are all on 1RR (2 at a push - against an IP perhaps?), so others who want movement will need to offer support. I know it's currently frowned-on to say that so openly, but I think that sometimes frustrated editors have approached 3RR simply because others have backed off from touching it at all. Whatever we do in talk to create consensus, the editing table is the only way to ultimately prove it. When situations are so fought over like this one, lose the courage to do it and you may as well have no consensus. The weasel word "may" had to go somehow, and least we've lost the double-whammy word "offensive"! --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:06, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Rockpocket's proposal sounds like the best solution. I personally support the wording.--jeanne (talk) 05:25, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Removing both "may" and "offensive" is probably a reasonable compromise and keeps it to a sentence, which is the most a geography article should have. You might get some opposition to jumping in after protection was removed without proposing it here, but I for one don't object. --Snowded TALK 05:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


Removing "offensive" is a sop to the IDONTLIKEIT brigade so I object. Do I have to list all the sources that use "offensive" again? IIRC it's the most common characterization in the references. IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid argument. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 18:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

(reduce indent) Actually, let's see those remarks in the references again. But the references not only say objectionable, but mostly say offensive. "Geographical terms also cause problems and we know that some will find certain of our terms offensive. Many Irish object to the term the 'British Isles'", "In an attempt to coin a term that avoided the 'British Isles' - a term often offensive to Irish sensibilities....", "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable, "...the British Isles (a term which is itself offensive to Irish Nationalists)", "The British Isles does include the island of Ireland although the adjective British used in this context is often found offensive by Irish Nationalists". Combined with reference that shows that the "great majority" of people in Ireland are nationalists, we have some huge evasion going on if we remove the word offensive. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 18:24, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

And if anyone is interested in seeing a non-reputable source's opinion, have a look at http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1998/07/01/opinion.htm. This is a letter in an Irish paper from 1998, pretty much pre-Wikipedia (IINM) and describes the term as "regarded by seemingly most Irish people as offensive" and as "almost taboo among those of Irish nationality". Now this letter writer was writing in favour of the term, so perhaps those who like the term would finally manage to realize that it's not a pro or con argument here, it's a question of recognizing reality as it is, not how you think it should be. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 18:36, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
One of the most offensive things I've personally experienced is the amount of times you have made me go through your same clutch of references over and over, over most of this year. 50 times, counting utterly exhausted breaks? I expect you read about 5 of them, no-matter how much point-by-point analysis I had written. Your 'QED' conclusion from these refs is just nonsense. You have actually found a new reference now - well done. But "seemingly most" from a letter writer isn't good enough. And who knows what he's been reading, eh? Using the term "seemingly" as he does, '10 to 1' he's been reading the politicised rantings of and Gold heart and yourself, over this and the 'naming dispute' article (which for a while was outrageously biased - so much so that you simply couldn't reverse my amendments to it, even though you slagged them of repeatedly). I notice one other available ref which you never use - the one that actually refers to Wikipedia. By the way, did you fail to get your dog through quarantine? You've been there a while.--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, multiple references that some people refuse to actually read. Meantime, here's another. How about this...."Of course, many Irish dislike the 'British' in British Isles.......... In response to these difficulties 'Britain and Ireland' is becoming a preferred usage...". Now, it's only from an academic publisher of the highest order (Routledge). Several people have previously suggested that "British Isles" was in decreasing use. Now there's a reference to support that. Intro needs a re-write. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 22:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

What I would suggest is putting any mention of the term being offensive into a footnote, and removing it from the lead altogether. After all, it's only a vanishingly small percentage of the population of the British Isles who find it so. ðarkuncoll 23:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

'Offensive' does indeed seem to be well referenced, and the decline of its use and its replacement by 'Britain and Ireland' is especially well referenced (e.g. maps by international publishers mentioned earlier). This article should accurately and honestly reflect these changes, regardless of the opinions of a small minority editing this article.(different user to above) 78.16.179.151 (talk) 23:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Agree. If anything the gross offensiveness of referring to Ireland as if it were still part of a genocidal Empire should be much more strongly highlighted. Sarah777 (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it about time to ban the above editor (again) from Wikipedia? This constant reference to the British Empire and other things British in the most objectionable terms imaginable is really quite offensive to me and I guess many other level-headed people. This editor continues to drag Wikipedia into the swamp. 86.24.126.222 (talk) 20:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Some editors may find a statement that the British Empire genocidal offensive, but it is a view which is held and for which there is some supporting evidence. I think its a bit extreme, but it is a valid view. On the other hand saying that an editor is dragging Wikipedia into a swamp is personal abuse. At least the editor concerned declares herself rather than hiding behind an IP address making provocative comments. --Snowded TALK 21:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The fact that I edit using an IP is a total irrelevance. I stand by my comments. The editor is well known for provocative, distasteful views aimed at all things British. By the way, validity is not a feature of someone's view. A view is a view, not a fact. 86.24.126.222 (talk) 21:33, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
An IP address with no edit history, jumping in with provocative remarks on a controversial page? Don't make me laugh, of course its relevant. the words "provocative" and "distasteful" are views, and they constitute personal attacks on an individual editor. A view can be based on facts by the way. Most empires have genocide or near genocide in their history, trying to deny it is "distasteful" to the memory of those who have suffered, its a matter of honesty really. As I say I think you seeking to provoke a response, its called baiting and its not helpful --Snowded TALK 21:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
You obviously don't like IPs and I guess you would prefer Wikipedia didn't allow them. However, they are allowed, so I suggest you hold back from discriminating against them. My "view" is that people should not be forced to have a total edit history to their name, and as you might say, my view is valid. As for the extreme and nasty views of some of the editors here, I'm coming to the conclusion that what's needed is for all reasonable editors on both sides of this argument to abandon it completely. Leave this, and similar pages alone, don't be provoked by the hateful, 19th century views of certain editors; let them stew in their own juice. Simply stop entering into a dialogue with them. 86.24.126.222 (talk) 21:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
If I judged all Irish people on those I've met on Wikipedia, I could call them nasty aggressive, obsessive, racist, deceitful, childish idiots! Would that be fair? I can give you evidence if you like. My own rising distaste one of the reasons I can't wait to get out of this place. IMO, a small group of people have stained all the UK articles with your absolutely pulsating hatred of Britain with no perspective of time and place! Policy never means anything to you regarding these matters. Above, Sarah, you are "agreeing" with Wikipeire (as I'm sure you know - and the sockpuppetry of whom you have openly defended on Alison's talk) - but look what he did to Wales and Scotland! Do you support Gold heart too? Some of these characters are armchair criminals as far as I'm concerned. I'm working at IDTF for an Irish country I'm actually starting, for the first time in my life, to actually dislike. If it is really true that Ireland is full of people like you and Gold heart et al absolutely insist that it is, then it seems like an unpleasant place to me. Is it an unpleasant place? All the Irish I've seen in real life have been nothing like that, but I can't help feeling that maybe Ireland really is an unpleasant place? There is so little evidence of this active offense on the net, but maybe they just keep the hatred in the pubs, as has been suggested? Maybe the Irish keep coming over into Britain just to 'rip off' the old British enemy, rather than to live and settle and inter-breed? Are all the mixed children accidents? Unlike some, disliking another culture doesn't sit well with me at all. --Matt Lewis (talk)
Matt, given the direct reference to Irish editors this comment constitutes personal abuse. I deleted a similar extreme anti-British diatribe earlier and was tempted to do so this time. However I think it would be best if you simply reverted the comment (and this one). Phrases like "armchair criminals", "racist" etc could easily earn you a ban, something that I for one would not want to see happen. Sarah is talking about an entity (the British Empire) not the British per se as individuals. She may be going too far with the phrase genocide, although there are several episodes in the history of the Empire which get close. --Snowded TALK 15:08, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, as usual, smudges the line. I've toned it down. --Matt Lewis (talk) 15:22, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Of course, given news like this (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/ireland-is-ranked-friendliest-place-in-the-world-13474671.html), one might wonder why it is that MattLewis has such an untypical relationship with so many Irish people. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 10:05, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
As I said, the more moderate objectionable seemed the best compromise between the disparate interpretation of the multitude of sources. I'm not asking anyone to change their view, I'm asking that people seek consensus by compromise. If "GB&I is becoming a preferred description", which may be the case, then you need to make clear by whom, because I'm pretty sure everyone, everywhere doesn't have that preference. Perhaps you mean among the Irish population? Perhaps you actually mean it is the recommended description [by someone], rather than the preferred desciption? Either way, as it stands the language is extremely weaselly, and needs some sort of attribution or specificity. Rockpocket 00:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The line about "preferred description" is an extremely close paraphrase of text from a Routledge published book, written mostly by University of Sussex academics, with one or two Cambridge academics. As for objectionable without offensive, it isn't a compromise, it's an evasion.79.155.245.81 (talk) 00:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
That doesn't address the issue. Let me rephrase it: who are the University of Sussex academics, with one or two Cambridge academics referring to when they say "GB&I is becoming a preferred description"? If you don't know, perhaps you could reproduce it here in context. Rockpocket 00:46, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Also, what is it with may around here? Critics may prefer? They may do whatever the hell they want, but documenting their free will isn't particularly insightful. We what to document what critics do, not what they may do. Rockpocket 00:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
If the majority of the Irish find the British genocidal then why do so many Irish people live "across the water"? Can anyone answer that?--jeanne (talk) 06:25, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
@Jeanne. Sarah777 seems to find aspects of the British Empire's history to be genocidal. I don't know if she feels the British are currently genocidal and I don't know if anyone else shares her view. AFAIK there is no reference to support any statement that "the majority of the Irish find the British genocidal".
@Rocketpocket. The text of the reference is easy to find online. I believe that the authors are saying that "Britain and Ireland" is becoming a preferred description at least in Britain and in Ireland, but they may mean everywhere. That would match my personal experience, but my personal experience is not relevant. As for "may", I'd be happy to lose it from that sentence too. It seemed an accurate word in context. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 07:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think I can shed some light on my own statements; but first to clarify what I didn't say: "the majority of the Irish find the British genocidal".
The fact that the Empire was genocidal is more a matter of established fact than opinion. The "controversial" part? Because "British" is still the term used today to describe the people of the neighbouring island, is it appropriate to speak the truth about the British Empire in Wiki conversation? Many editors feel it isn't.
However, the importance of this issue - so long as British editors (and some others) insist on describing Ireland as part of the "British" Isles - means that the truth cannot be avoided in this debate. However offended some folk might be. (Especially as the Anglo-American educational system doesn't apparently teach that their respective states engaged in widespread genocide, some British editors exposed to the facts by us more knowledgeable folk can be shocked to hear the truth). Sarah777 (talk) 09:30, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

(Am I the only one who loves the irony of using Anglo to refer to the UK in a conversation about whether British with respect to Ireland? I didn't realise Scotland, Wales & Northern Ireland were English) Scroggie (talk) 21:52, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Sarah, the truth never shocks me. Just the use of genocide applied Solely to the British Empire, while ignoring far more murderous regimes, annoys me very much. In fact, it Bores me, if you want my honest opinion. I used to argue quite frequently with my father about Irish/British issues. Another thing, the world does not revolve upon an Irish/British axis. And finally before I go to prepare for what passes as a Sunday lunch here in Italy, the Anglo/American educational system had/has it's faults, but I wouldn't advocate sending childen to the Christian Brothers. Would you?--jeanne (talk) 10:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Assuming the stupidity of others in just a character trait of the obsessed I'm afraid. We are just not sensitive and knowledgeable enough to see how evil the very name "Britain" is. --Matt Lewis (talk) 14:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

>>> Given that this article is about things British (including Ireland, so this story goes), it wouldn't make much sense for her to be speaking about, for instance, the Mongol Empire and other, allegedly, 'far more murderous regimes". Please keep focused. 78.16.214.238 (talk) 13:36, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Acctually, the British Empire isn't regarded, academically, as genocidal. At least not universally. The usual first example is either the Belgian Congo (The personal fief of Leopold II) or the death marches in German Africa. British slaughter generally occured not through a desire to slaughter, but through a lack of caring as to the survival of a group (Not that this isn't as bad, just not genocide/biopolitical extirpation). There are some good lectures I can point you to if you want, Sarah. Now, that being said, there is no requirement for you to spout 'truths' as you see them (To expose people to them as you put it), nor for other editors too, nor for me to spout truths as I see them as I just did (Ah, sweet hypocracy). We are here to discuss the article. If editors here find the term offensive, it is irrelevent to the discussion, only what the sources say and what consensus is reached. Edited to add: Can we have references to geographical terms being replaced etc sourced to geography books, preferably? An introduction to post-war literature and society is a bit flimsy for such a statement. --Narson ~ Talk • 10:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC) Edited: 10:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Jeanne; personally I don't read stuff that bores me - maybe adopt that tactic? I'd also be interested to know what the relevance of the Rwandan Genocide has to this British/Irish issue. How would we work it in to the debate? No, I wouldn't send my kids to the brothers either probably but again what has that got to do with the BI naming dispute? "Another thing, the world does not revolve upon an Irish/British axis.". You don't say? Who said that it did? Sarah777 (talk) 10:58, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Narson; thanks but I don't need lectures. I state truths I don't "spout" them. If folk repeatedly imply that the term "British" applied to Ireland can't be deemed "offensive" then we must continue to explain, in our plodding patient way, to the chronically underinformed exactly why it is offensive. It is tough and unpopular work but someone gotta do it. Sarah777 (talk) 11:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, I've got a brilliant idea. I'll phone my eldest sons, who happen to live in Donaghmede, and tell them to take a wee survey around the pub tonight and ask their mates whether the "geographical term" British Isles offends them at all. Now, if the answer is nay, I'm sure that you'll just breezily put it down to their being "chronically uninformed". (Now where did I hear that phrase before- ah, yes from someone whose opinions I did not blindly agree with). Actually, it wasn't moi who brought up Rwanda. Seeing as we were discussing empires I was thinking along the lines of the Ottoman Empire, Spanish Empire, etc.--jeanne (talk) 11:37, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
It's an interesting new take on objective research. Two sons of an avowed royalist tarot reader and amateur astrologer conduct a vox pop in a pub on a Sunday night, curious. --Snowded TALK 12:38, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Sarah, I'm not sure anyone says no-one in Ireland finds the term British Isles offensive/objectionable. Hell, considering some people find offense at the Teletubbies, I'm suprised by nothing. The only debate is over the leve of objection and what proportion of the Irish population and how to word it. I am sure you will accept that not every Irishman considers the term offensive, so that is where the discourse lies. Going on about genocide and, as 86 was doing, how you are owed some great debt does not forward those decision. Rockpocket's edit seems pretty good, at least to me. I don't think the sources say that everyone draws offense, they do however show that a large portion find it offensive/objectionable and with an absolute majority clearly findin it objectionable. What about it upsets you? That it uses objectionable rather than offensive, objectionable being a less emotive term? Or do you disagree with many? --Narson ~ Talk • 12:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
@Narson. Pray tell, is there a source that shows that an absolute majority clearly find it objectionable? I'm unaware of that one. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 09:07, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Snowded, pray tell me what Tarot cards and astrology have to do with my point on the British Isles? Namely that the average bloke in Darndale or Artane really doesn't give two s..tes about a geographical term, nor the fact that the mother of their mates is "an avowed monarchist (Royalist was a term used during the English Civil War). And I'm sure the average Dublin girl doesn't either. So why not settle for Rockpocket's proposal and let's move on to other issues.--jeanne (talk) 13:43, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I think Snow's point, and I agree with him on this, is that original research and anecdotal evidence has no place here. We arn't trying to decide the right of the matter, only what should be in an aricle. The only thing we may engage in is looking at the sources and working otu how best to represent them in text. --Narson ~ Talk • 13:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I also agree. You really love name dropping as if you know what you're talking about. It just original research. There are a number of social issues in most of the areas you've mentioned so I don't know what point you're trying to make. What someone from Darndale thinks is completely irrlevant to an encyclopedia, its what the nation as a whole and what the references say that matters, not your opinions.Tempac (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Narson, you have it right. I was responding to the boleyn girl at the same level of relevance as her original argument to make a point. However I will apologise for calling a monarchist a royalist as it appears to be a matter of some importance to said editor. --Snowded TALK 13:50, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
The point the Boleyn girl is trying to make is this the average Irish person has more important issues to worry about than what to call the islands of Ireland and Great Britain which at this point in time and place are still referred to as the British Isles. I was not "name-dropping". Since when does a reference to two Dublin neighbourhoods constitute name-dropping!!!! My God, to enter any discussion here one needs to don a suit of armour. I have merely said I agree with Rockpocket's wording. Isn't it better to reach a compromise than waste time and energy fighting over a few words?--jeanne (talk) 15:26, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Who are you, Dev- you know what the average Irish person thinks? Please stop claiming to speak on behalf of the 'average Irish person'. I have yet to meet an 'average Irish person' who is a British royalist, as you claim to be. I am a Fine Gael-voting GAA-supporting PAYE worker and I don't know if that qualifies me as 'average'; I do know that the term "British Isles" has never been used by anybody in any discussion that I have had with them. I'd notice that, but then again despite the above I do not consider myself 'average'. At any rate, that is neither here nor there: there is, according to sources on these talk pages, an abundance of evidence testifying to this term being used less, and there are also sufficient references to support 'offensive' over 'objectionable'. That is what matters, not the subjective opinion of a wikipedia editor.78.16.214.238 (talk) 16:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

User:Tempac and 78.16.214.238 is the same editor double-attacking someone, on the back of other people too. Yes it's the banned User:Wikipéire again (Pureditor, ThatsGrand etc) showing what an unpleasant person he is. --Matt Lewis (talk) 01:19, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Your paranoia is incessant. And no evidence to support your latest allegation either. So much for AGF. It's quite clear that you are attempting to discredit every person who supports all these sources, namely that the term is rarely used in Ireland, is in decline and is offensive. It's surprising you've got away with these tactics for so long. 86.42.119.12 (talk) 08:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

The evidence was placed, the indef block followed. Click the Tempac link. I'm making these comments when I see fit, as there is simply no on-screen record on Wikipedia, for when someone does what Wikipéire tried to do above - which was gang up on someone with his latest sock and his IP. What gets me is that you always excuse clearly poor acts like this. Isn't it funny how I am always paranoid? It's never bad behaviour by anyone else. Elsewhere in the world of Wiki you come on so self-righteously grave heart, but in here you simply show yourself up.--Matt Lewis (talk) 08:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Irish author Dervla Murphy in her book A Place Apart, published 1978, says how the term "British Isles", made her aggressive as an adolescent and then later on, made her wince. Then she adds "Now the pendulum has swung the other way and I rather favour it as a recognition of certain psychological and cultural facts, themselves the outcome of completed historical processes which it is much too late to reverse. It therefore pleased me to hear many youngish Northern Catholics casually using 'British Isles' as a natural description of these two islands." This is a quote from an Irish author, not my subjective opinion. Therefore, unless someone conducts a door-to-door survey throughout Ireland, the word offensive is a hyberbole and should not be used for this article.--jeanne (talk) 09:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
The word "offensive" is used in verifiable and reputable sources in this context and therefore should be in this article. You may think it's hyperbole and others may think it's an understatement. Doesn't matter. 79.155.245.81 (talk) 09:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
It matters in every way - because we need to follow our collective judgement to decide upon the nature of the sourced information. You simply do not understand WP:V, Wotapalaver. The first few lines of the Verifiability policy is unfortunately misleading to those you really want to believe something is Verifiable and therefore fact. These clutch of important sources are finite, and they have their own context, so cannot be appropriated as fact the way you want them to be. We need explanatory covering words for all contentious matters that don't have the kind of sources backing them up one would reasonably expect them to have. It is the part of the Verifiability policy called WP:REDFLAG. This is only a problem with this article because some editors have demanded these sources to be taken and written as fact, and have consistently edit-warred back to the locked status-quo to make sure it is the case. Wikipedia has its own encyclopedic context - it has to consider weight, quality and neutral point of view. Merely having 'reliable sources' is not enough to appropriate their content as fact.
According to Jimbo Wales in WP:WEIGHT, for the opinion of the significant minority (like we we must assume we have here, as we can't prove it's a majority), we should name the prominent adherents. Which would be Pollock as the principle polemicist, and Kearney who in his book British Isles, said "Almost inevitably many within the Irish Republic find it objectionable". But that is for outside of the Intro! In the Intro we should allude to the controversy without making the value judgements that we do. The "many" here would need 'many' sources to back it up - but we just don't many sources - despite the few who childishly say "many many many" like broken records. If we can't say who the many are, then "many" is actually a weasel wo