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Here is a record of consensus items on this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HG (talk • contribs) 06:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

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Why in the world cut all of my work that I spent all night in one second? what evidence or reference do you have against my edits ( my edits references) have mercy please!75.72.88.121 (talk) 08:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Did you read my edit that you removed ?? did you read the reference I provided with the same lettering of Herodotus ( that Palestine is not Phoenicia on the shore and between phoenicia and Egypt? egypt enclude sinai, so where is Palestine?75.72.88.121 (talk) 08:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Dear Tiamut: Every dam family in the world have a coat of arms, why the palestinian people don't have a right to the coat of arms??? plus it is used by the Palestinian authority as insignia on office doors and military uniforms and many other places!! any small minority of less than 400 people have their coat of arms? why you a palestinian don't like it. It is not a POV it is a fact used by the people and the authorities of palestinians since before the establishmeny of Israel ( including the falg: from the arabic poem: our grass is green our sky is dark ( for the enemies) oyr swords are red etc etc) the falcon is a symbol of almost all nations in the world, nothing more famous among falcons like the Arabic Falcon ( the Free Bird the fasytest animal in the world 120m/hour when striking, that is why it is sold for a million dollar a falcon, while falcons of the world are just 50 bucks each) and saladin is a secular personality beloved by the europpeans more than the arbs themselves, and near your city is the Village of Hittin where Saladin and plenty of palestinians defeated the crusaders ( the ancient British ), what is wrong with you?

As for the second protest why change Palestine to include Phoenicia and other places, while as Herodotus clearly say that the fifth satrapy starts with syrian coast meeting the turkish coast and going a shore all the way to egypt through phoenicia and that area of syria called Palestine) what? for the mother of all lords.

. where is your reference that somebody interpret herodotus differently ( where is it) other than somebody from the editors wrote it, and how come there were philistines in 450 BC in Palestine ( the sea people now are surely known as the Ionians!) and Herodotus is Ionian why did he not talk about existance of Ionians in Palestine???75.72.88.121 (talk) 13:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Why remove the map of palestine during the Romans ( 700 years) acknowledging that Romans indeed used the word palestine for the exact same palestine as you can see from the roman map ( with only a little part of northen jordan ) by the way Jordan was never part of Palestine or vice versa, Jordan was called Arabia Felix in roman and in greek times and this is another proof that jordan was not connected to palestine only by the enemy Britain which was planning in advance to drive the palestinians out side palestine and into jordan ( as another palestine) which came true!! so why are you on the side of the enemies of palestine?? Don't you know that zionists keep saying that palestine and jordan were one ( not true untill 198 when the British invadors did that to facilitate Jabotinsky. and to get money from Rothschild family? ( thanx to this unholly alliance Britain fell from the top in no time??75.72.88.121 (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

First, can you stop ranting and making personal attacks?
Second, I didn't remove your edit on Herodotus. I placed it in the references because it breaks the flow of the text. Second of all, I changed the wording to reflect that is includes Phoenicia. Your wording implied that it did not.
Third, I moved the coat of arms down into the body of the article because we already have a nice picture in the lead. There's no need for it there. I have no ulterior motive for this, other than following article layout guidelines, which I asked you to read earlier.
Fourth, I removed the map of Palestine during the Roman era because there is already a picture of Palestine from the Arab medieval period and the subject is better dealt with in the article on Palestine. As I've tried to explain to you over and over again, this article is about the Palestinian people (as a people). It is not about the boundaires of Palestine throughout history. That is discussed in the Palestine article itself. Let's try not to overlap.
Finally, I know very well what the Zionists say. I live in Nazareth, remember? I'm very familiar with their arguments. I don't need to be reminded by you what they are. There is nothing "wrong" with me. I'm trying to keep this article at tip-top shape. I'd appreciate it if you would stop questioning my national loyalty and my intentions and focus on making this article a good one. Some of your edits have brought in very important information. Did you notice that I expanded the new section you created on the struggle against British occupation? I'm trying to work with you here, but you are not making it very easy. Please, calm down. Stop speculating as to my intentions and let's work together to try and understand each other and make this article the best and most comprehensive one on Wikipedia. Okay? Tiamuttalk 13:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Please be extremely careful in editing the section on Herodotus. I note you write, for example,:-
'Herodotus clearly say that the fifth satrapy starts with syrian coast meeting the turkish coast. '
Herodotus never mentions the 'Turks'. So far it appears as though you are trying to implode the article on 'Palestine' and threatening to succeed where numerous cantankerously pro-Zionist editors have so far failed, because careful editors have tried to maintain the integrity of text aspiring to be NPOV. Please be more careful in future Nishidani (talk) 14:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Did you read the link to Herodotus book 2 logos 8 on the web?

it is so clear that you don't need to put an interpretation of the 10th alternative possibilities!! he says palestine is between phonecia ( not phoenicia) and egypt! and open to the sea! could that Palestine be other than our Palestine? there are many online reputable journals that explains just that, but you and the bunch choose the far out possibility and make it number one against Herodtotus words! is that guy wells a reputed historian, does every thing he said taken for sure, or wasen't ninety percent of his stuff sci fi stuff?????? there are two wells and both of them sci fi ! ( science fiction imaginaries)


well cilicia he mentioned not turkey but why don't you check where is that place ( it is Hatay provice in Turkey north of Antakia (antioch0adanah province too. it is a very famous name in the ancients, should I explain every bit on the article itself? can't you use your mouse instead of just removing my edits. take it on your heart and do some counter research like I am doing all night long, it is not respectful to do that you know, not at all, I should be asleep few hours ago but I have to collect the peices after any given person comes and have a look and then remove, so easy to do75.72.88.121 (talk) 14:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

So where the difinition of Palestinian people in this article?? how can you study a people before you know who are they???? the only difinition of Palestinians is that by the palestinian authority ( all descendents of people living in Palestine Before the 1981 British occupation of Palestine. It is simple and concise and does not include the british people and others who came in Palestine with a british visa, because it is illeagal!! Imagine if palestinians invaded England and we started ditributing citizenship cards on English according to our liking( including even the Queen) do you think that will be acceptable to the English. what if we decided to make a woman from the Welsh celts as the Queen of England, and demote the Current Queen as a maid to the new Queen? is that acceptable?. Since palestinians never stopped fighting the British from day one ( and the body count from both sides testify for that) 10s of thousand of british soldiers from 195-1947 ( since the Palestinians were fighting the british even before the british came to palestine. Even since 1096, not a british soldier dies in any of the battles arounds the world but a Palestinian soldier dies from the other side!! ( not only the crusade but all other wars and battles England endulged in sea or land in the Old world!75.72.88.121 (talk) 15:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


Hi I would like to ulter these statements in the article because they are wrong: 1- The PA was not created by the Oslo accord but by the PLO! and voting of people of the national assembly.

2- denotes generally[5] the coastal land, including Phoenicia of Sidon down to Egypt.[6] (((should be between phoenicia ( capital sidon) and Egypt))) 'Syrians of Palestine',[7] it refers to a population distinct from the Phoenicians, and thus probably Philistines though it may also cover several other tribes and ethnic groups present in the area, including the Jews

Can't be philistines in 450 BC and little jews were back from Babylon. the land was void of Jews in 450 BC time of Ezra trying to resurruct the wall against the will of the Ishmaelites (arabs) read Ezra. eventually only part of jews returned.

3-map umayyad: I request the Umayyad administrative map be returned because it clearly shows that Arabs from the 7th centry were using Palestine for the name of the arae!!( a powerful proof, silencer.


4-links should be to palestinian diaspora link not arab diaspora!


This should be mentioned as to who are the Palestinians( difinition) this will cut the arguments: Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father- whether in Palestine or outside it- is also a Palestinian. Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians.

5- to mention that palestinian who is late from a trip looses his RESIDENCY ( can not go back to his family and home) loose residency even was born there.

6- How do you start an article like this??: The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of [[World War I] and there is even more following, is there exodemic or intradermic spread too? is this an article to help people buy books for their final thesis??75.72.88.121 (talk) 16:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think we should put the difinition of palestinian according to the Palestinian authority:

Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father- whether in Palestine or outside it- is also a Palestinian. Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion are considered Palestinians.

I found it at the website of PA charter to the UN. By making it clear from the beginning so no stray away and turning off readers. readers here are not doing a thesis rather get introduction about the palestinian!! Ot is impossible for a lay person to read these referenced Books from libraries or from amazon.com. most info are on the web these days. Libraries are closing all over. I would like to refer to the criteria/s by Miller about characteristics of peoples at this web article:

David Miller a professor of political theory at oxford, offers the most set of difinitions of what constitute a nation: 1-members recognize each other as compatriots. second- historical continuty 3-active identity (plo liberation movement, resistance), establishing a university or a studies center, 4-particular geographical place, 5- a common public culture folklore religion and language 6- genetic relatedness (at least myth of a common origin), 7-rule at least as a unified province.the historical identity took place in that country (nation' cradle)

as you can see all items are in the palestinians. we need to enrich the article with examples for these set!75.72.88.121 (talk) 01:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The definition provided by the PLO and PNA is in the etymology section. I don't think it needs to be in the introduction. Below, I am proposing that we remove the paragraph on the the first use of Palestinian as an endonym into the section on etymology where it belongs since it's highlighting in the introduction is WP:UNDUE.
About Palestinian being a nation, you are most welcome to add such information to the body of the article. Putting it in the intro would not be wise at this juncture since a multi-month discussion ended with no consensus on its inclusion there. Instead, "a people" was the preferred compromise choice. That doesn't mean you can't write that Palestinian are considered a nation though in the body of the article, as long as it is cited to reliable sources. Tiamuttalk 11:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This article is all messed up because of Not defining who is Palestinians ( before we talk about them in details), The jewish crew argueing with Tiamut and educated crew about who is exactly is palestinian and bringing forever increasing references of all kinds. Just put the difinition by the Palestinian Authority which include all arguments ( 400 samaritans, 200 jews before 1900 or 20000 jews who came from Egypt after the 1917 british invasion etc) I got headache and can not read the article so how about the lay man. It is a turn off , images and videos are more informing than references by unknown people and the Bern Lewis thingy.75.72.88.121 (talk) 19:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC) I also suggest put the arguments of the antipalestinians in a below section titles different opinions.like the similar articles across wikipedia75.72.88.121 (talk) 19:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Too bad the newbie editor,75.72.88.121, has been discouraged from contributing by the perception that their contributions were being reverted out of hand. I agree there are definitional problems with this article. Doright (talk) 05:15, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to move paragraph out of intro into etymology section

This paragraph

The first widespread endonymic use of "Palestinian" to refer to the nationalist concept of a Palestinian people by the Arabs of Palestine began prior to the outbreak of World War I,[1] and the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921.[2] After the exodus of 1948, and even more so after the exodus of 1967, the term came to signify not only a place of origin, but the sense of a shared past and future in the form of a Palestinian nation-state.[1]

should be moved into the etymology section. It's placement as the second paragraph in the introduction places WP:UNDUE emphasis on the process of national identity construction, not present in any other article on a national group.

Objections? Tiamuttalk 10:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

None from me. Do you plan to fill it with something else?-maybe see how the article fills out, or not. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 11:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
For now, no. I'd like to see how the article develops a bit first. Of course, we can always discuss what other information might be useful to the lead, after we reach agreement on this paragraph's removal. Thanks for your input. Tiamuttalk 11:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

there is a difference between nation-state and nation. You do not need to compromise and make concensus with antipalestinians. The antipalestinians view should be made in a section at the end (alternative view). The article is about palestinians and should be written ( or at least approved by the palestinians, like other ethnic articles on wiki) I demand cleanse the article from zionist and israeli views by designating a section. You don't need to write about the palestinian as a nation untill they become a state!Reletomp (talk) 19:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I object to this suggestion. It is relevant to the article that the usage of "Palestinian" as separate from Arabs in general is relatively new and still developing. Additionally, I agreed to the recent compromise ("a people" rather than the better-sourced "people") partly because the intro also included this particular information. It needs to be left in for some sort of balance. 6SJ7 (talk) 05:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

6SJ7 You write:'It is relevant to the article that the usage of "Palestinian" as separate from Arabs in general is relatively new and still developing.'
Actually, most Western writers of the 17th to 19th century distinguished the native fellahin of Palestine from the 'Arabs' as another 'race' altogether, and it is the rise of Zionism and its rhetoric, and the corresponding 'Islamification' of the population in the reactive nationalism of the area, which led to the conflation of Palestinians with Arabs. Your remark, like many others in here, simply reflects this nationalist rewriting of the past. The Bedouin were defined as 'Arabs' the Palestinian majority were 'fellahin'. Source:-
“the word ‘Arab’ needs to be used with care, It is applicable to the bedouin and to a section of the urban and effendi classes; it is inappropriate as a description of the rural mass of the population, the fellaheen. The whole population spoke Arabic, usually corrupted by dialects bearing traces of words of other origin, but it was only the Bedouin who habitually thought of themselves as Arabs. Western travellers from the sixteenth century onwards make the same distinction, and the word ‘Arab’ almost always refers to them exclusively.’ p209 James Parkes Whose Land?
Nishidani (talk) 10:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
6SJ7, given that it is an etymologically related piece of information, wouldn't it be better placed in the etymology section (right below the introduction?) Also, how do you respond to the concerns of three editors here that including it in the introduction places WP:UNDUE emphasis on the process of national identity construction, not present in any other article on a national group? Further, isn't it somewhat internally contradictory to a) object to Palestinians being characterized as a nation, while at the same time b) insisting that the "newness" of their national identity be emphasized in the introduction? Tiamuttalk 05:47, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with developing the etymology section where the debates can be presented in full and leaving this out of the lead for the time being. On the general issue of the weight to be given to the construction of national identity, I would point out that all articles on ethnic and/or national groups do or should give space to this. See for example the careful explanations in the lead of Scottish people and the section title problematic definition in French people. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
If as you Itsmejudith note, the leads for French people and Scottish people carefully explain the terms, then it is difficult to understand why this innocent hint in the lead should expunge a similar point, made laconically, and be relocated further down in the relevant section. Perhaps User:Tiamut, I have missed something, but the lead should technically have a brief sketch of the use of the term, which is then elaborated on in a lower section. The remark seems to me appropriate where it is, and, as Itsmejudith notes, similar passages are present elsewhere in Wiki articles on nationalities. Furthermore, the text is not 'etymological', it refers to use and defines the accepted use of the word, and that means the lead is the appropriate place for it. INHP Nishidani (talk) 11:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
With respect, the French people article does not mention anything related to this discussion in the lead. The lead is two sentences long and neither one discusses the construction of national identity. While the Scottish people does include some such information, it also refers to Scots as a nation and an ethnic group indigenous to Scotland in the very first sentence, firmly establishing the legitimacy of this identity.
Those insisting on the inclusion of the recentism of Palestinian as a national identity are generally the same people denying the applicability of the use of the term nation to refer to Palestinians. Now given that we agreed not to reopen the debate of nationhood for at least another five months, I want to make clear that I am not advocating for the inclusion of nation in the lead a this juncture. I do however think it is grossly unbalanced to stress the recentism of Palestinian national identity, without using the term nation to refer to this people. (To me, it seems a favouring of the Zionist narrative that Palestinians are merely Arabs who decided to pretend they had a national identity.) As such, and due to the concerns of other new editors here, I am proposing that the paragraph in question be moved down into the "Etymology" section. From my reading of her comments, ItsmeJudith is not opposed to this suggestion for the time being. It is not a radical move, but I feel it's important to achieving NPOV balance in the lead. Tiamuttalk 11:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I made two points in one contribution, sorry if it wasn't clear. The first is that I don't mind if the question is kept out of the lead. This is just because I think it is always easier to write the sections first and the lead afterwards. My second point was that articles on peoples should discuss the construction of their ethnic/national identity. The two articles I cited give some prominence - in different ways - to such a process of construction. The notion that the origin of the Palestinian national identity is wholly recent is, in my opinion, a notable but a minority view, and I agree with Tiamut that it should not be given a great deal of prominence. It should definitely not be implied by weasel wording. I haven't had a chance to read all the archived discussion on the point so can't comment any further on the nuances. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't know what boogeymen Tiamut is referring to when talking about the "Zionist narrative," but it seems to me that this issue shouldn't be that complicated. Most (though not all) Middle Eastern countries are a result of borders that were drawn more or less arbitrarily by colonial powers for their own purposes. During the time of the Ottoman Empire, administrative boundaries had relatively little effect on the way people moved and settled. Iraq, Syria, Jordan, etc., are all recent innovations, but that doesn't mean their national aspirations are any less valid. --Leifern (talk) 19:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Leifern, I wrote: To me, it seems a favouring of the Zionist narrative that Palestinians are merely Arabs who decided to pretend they had a national identity. What boogeyman are you talking about? Tiamuttalk 20:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
I think his concern was that you might have been using "Zionist" as an epithet, though in this case I think you probably weren't. perhaps in the future, we could use phrases like something like "views commonly seen among pro-Israel political advocates and pundits," or something, similar? thanks.--Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
No epithet intended, merely description. Note I did not say "Zionists" but "Zionist narrative" which refers to a political line of thinking, rather than characterizing people according to their views. "Pro-Israel political advocates and pundits" actually seems more offensive to me, but hey, to each his own. Thanks for your input Steve. Tiamuttalk 20:12, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Tiamut, what I was reacting to was the premise that only someone you think would be opposed to Palestinian people would dare suggest that it's "recent" that Palestinians have identified themselves as a distinct people. Setting aside whether that's the case, I'm merely pointing out that Middle Eastern nation-states are for the most part recent inventions. This doesn't make, say, Syrian or Iraqi claims to peoplehood any less legitimate, and neither does it make Palestinians claim the same. As a general principle, I find these "xxxian people" articles problematic - you can see how awkward it is on a relatively uncontroversial topic, namely Norwegian people.--Leifern (talk) 20:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi. sorry, I agree with Leifern. (Although i don't feel tiamut's comments were actually excessive or malicious in any way.) However, i do want to note that it is not necessarily Zionist to hold certain political or historical viewpoints on Palestinian political claims, any more than it is "Arabist"to claim that Israel has in some way mistreated Palestinians. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:05, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Thanks for your comments Steve. In response to Leifern, I'd like to clarify something. My comments were 1) that in my opinion the intro seemed to favor a Zionist narrative and 2) that those who were supporting its inclusion in the lead tended generally to be the same people opposed to the idea of including the word nation in the lead. This contradiction was, in my opinion, worth noting, since it exemplifies how personal bias can lead to doublethink. I did however not say that only those who opposed to Palestinian people would suggest it was recent. That's your interpretation of what I wrote. While you are entitled to it, I thought I should be clear about my position and what I was trying to convey. Thanks for your time. Tiamuttalk 15:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So what this nonsense exactly mean: Does it mean that just because the British are Europpean they lose their Identity as British. It is known that all Europpeans are descendent of the Goths people ( or german peoples: Anglos, saxons, Franks, germans, visigoth of Spain, the Lombards ofitaly, the ostrogoth of Italy, the Slavs, the Yiddish speaking peoples like Ashkenazim and Khazar etc). does that mean because all of them are Goths they should give up their land for who ever demand it? How about England London. London area was inhabited by the Celts of Brittny of France) before the anglosaxons (goths scythians) kicked them out. Should we then bring the people from Brittny France and settle them in London? Palestinians are Arab nation just like France is a Austria is a german nation or France a gothic german nation ( the Franks etymology is Free-angles, who were freed on the bridge of Frankfurt and sent west Angles being a german people ( the angles of England!) so angles were in Germany east of frankfurt river, became the Franks in west of Frankfort and became the English in England (Engle-Land)75.72.88.121 (talk) 00:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

To get back on track here, I'm still waiting for a solid reason as to why this paragraph needs to be in the introduction. While Palestinian as a national identity crystallized in the late 19th century, almost all national groups in the Middle East and Africa and other colonized regions did not come to think of themselves in national terms until after the drawing of national boundaries by outside forces. I find the highlighting of the recentism of Palestinian national identity, per its placement in the second paragraph of the introduction to be WP:UNDUE. I think the subject is better covered in the "Etymology" section, directly below the introduction. I would like to make the edit as suggested. Are there any strong objections? Tiamuttalk 16:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with User:6SJ7 objection to the proposal that a clarification be removed from the introduction. I agree that the distinction he makes is relevant. Doright (talk) 05:34, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Nishidani, I see by your statement "the lead should technically have a brief sketch of the use of the term, which is then elaborated on in a lower section," that we are in agreement. It appears the only difference is that you prefer a version that I have shown to falsely sourced, and, have provided no rebuttal nor evidence in support of your position regarding the text here. Doright (talk) 05:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Leifernand Steve, Sm8900 debunking of Tiamut's proposal. It seems that Tiamut's proposal is ill-founded and and based upon a straw man argument to refute a claim not stated in the article. Remarkably, Tiamut says, "To me, it seems a favouring of the Zionist narrative that Palestinians are merely Arabs who decided to pretend they had a national identity." Leifern's point is well taken. He says, "I don't know what boogeymen Tiamut is referring to when talking about the 'Zionist narrative.'" Since, Tiamut's argument is predicated upon a rebuttal to this "pretend" thing that is not even stated in the article, it must be the desire to balance the "bogeyman" that is used to justify this unwise proposal.Doright (talk) 06:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

On Herododtus on Palestine

cyrrent article version says Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[5] the coastal land, including Phoenicia of Sidon down to Egypt.[6]" the reference 6 refers to Herodotus Histories Book 2 logos 8 where he says clearly that Phoenicia that its capital sidon is not Palestina. Since the current version support a STRANGE claim it should be supported by two references but not The Histories of Herodotus. I would like to refer to the Archaelogy magazine on the web that says clearly that the passage in Herodotus is clearly without a doubt Palestine is between Phoenicia and Egypt!! The current reference which easily accisable on the net ( a ref was removed recently to Herodotus logos 8 b2). It was the greek who named it Palestina BEFORE the Romans! ( in the Hellenic empire after Herodotus and before the romans!). It is obviously that the current version is manipulated by anti palestine theory supporters. You should change the wording immediatelyabubakr (talk) 23:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are the words of Herodotus "From the town of Posidium, which was founded by Amphilochus, son of Amphiaraus, on the border between Cilicia and Syria, as far as Egypt - omitting Arabian territory, which was free of tax, came 350 talents. This province contains the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine" at [1]

here is Jstor archaeology article

[2] and [3]...abubakr (talk) 23:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Here more from Herodotus:

Herodotus 3.5 describes the egyptian borders: “the only clear entry pass into egypt is this: from Phoenicia as far as the boundary of Cadytis is the country of what we called Palestinian Syrians; from Cadytis, a city that is in my judegement smaller that Sardis, to the city of Ienysus the seaports are in the posession of the arabians” ! You can see that Herodotus Palestine of Syria does not need interpretation: It is the land between Phoenicia with its capitol Sidon and the Borders of Egypt at Al-Arish (just like Egypt current borders now and any time in the past. Palestyne of Syria is all the land mass that opens to the sea between Phonecia south of Sidon of course to al Arish( near Rafah), hence it is the same Palestine of our days.! It is not true that Hadian named Judea as Palestine after 120 AD because Judea was already a small part of palestine (10% just the enclave around Jerusalem) while the whole area was known as Palestine at the time of Romans befor and after Judea's demise. The finding that Palestine was named palestine in the greek time means blast the Jewish media Point of View about Hadrian story. Obviously you wikipedians take the unreferenced material as for granted but when somebody is new to wiki you impress him by finding a reference to his claim to replace the material that is not referenced that you put in Wikipedia for granted as because it is popular in the media( even though not referenced!) It is upon you to bring proofs ( 2 references ) for the STRANGE claims that Palestine of Herodotus is not the current Palestine, and as a strange claim it should be put after the normal reference as a Strange claim alternative/s! I hope there are ears listening. At any rate people are reading this talk page and are finding for themselves how the wikipedians are biased and in cahoot with the controlled media! ( in all the articles that mentions the hadrian story fail to present a reference)!!!abubakr (talk) 02:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're a Wikipedian abubakr. Are you biased and in cahoots with the controlled media? Itsmejudith (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
BTW your point seems to be a good one. Scholarly articles discussing Herodotus's definition are an appropriate source for the article. We should avoid directly quoting Herodotus's Histories, as they are a primary source. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Abubakr, you've rasied a number of important points. I did a little research myself and found this text [4] which speculates as to who Herodotus meant he spoke of the "Syrians of Palestine". Note that the author makes clear that Herodotus never used the term "Jew" and yet, in our version of the article, we include "Jews" as one of the groups to whom Herodotus meant to refer. I'd like to remove this information from the article because I think its dangerously misleading to suggest that modern-day Jews were discussed Herodotus. Indeed, the author in the text I linked to explains how that thesis came to be established and its not a very convincing series of deductions. I'd also like to add the more scholarly sources you put forward, rather than using Herodotus as a primary text. I thought though, that I would open the issue here first, considering that many might object or claim "bias" if I made the edits without explanation. Thanks for the information and for listening. Tiamuttalk 16:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify. From memory, chancing on this text or the one on Palestine, I was struck by the usual cliché that the term Palestine was imposed by Hadrian, and added in the information from Herodotus, but sourcing it with the commentary by Hows and Wells on the Greek text. In the meantime, I gather this note has been conveniently removed, either from here or the other page, or both. These classical commentaries, at each section, gloss the primary source with detailed notes, pointing out contradictions ambiguities etc. One can't keep up with everything, but simply note, from time to time, how good information is neatly clipped out wittingly or otherwise, to leave confusion, as here, apparently. p.s.User:Tiamut The text you cite from Google Books, confirming the gloss 'Jews' for Syro-Palestinians by cross-reference to later use (Ovid) is just one of hundreds, on a problematical equation. Most issues here are controversial and any one scholarly text will only give a snippet of one of many possible interpretations Nishidani (talk) 17:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict - but it speaks to the points you raise anyway) Further, this source says the "Syrians of Palestine" or "Palestinian Syrians" (both terms are used by Herodotus), were an "ethnically amorphous group" whom this author speculates refers predominantly to Arab tribes. It seems the association of the "Syrians of Palestine" with Jews is due solely to the fact that they are described as practicing circumcision (which Herodotus reports that they themselves say they adopted from the Egyptians). Later writers assumed they were Jews, since circumsion is associated with Jewish tradition. However, this deductive logic has been called into question by a number of more recent scholars. I don't think we should include speculation as to the "Palestinian Syrians" ethnic composition in this article since it would take up too much space and is only tangentially related to the subject. Perhaps it can be discuss in the article on Herodotus' writings itself and then linked here. So, is anyone opposed to removing the information on the ethnic compositon of "Palestinian Syrians"? Tiamuttalk 17:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And How do you know that Arabs did not practice circumcision? How about the Samaritans ? in 450 BC there were no jews in Palestine they were still in Babylon for a 150 years. there were only Arabs and Samaritans (arabs from Hamah and Homs and Damascus of Aram!) You know that Arab practice circumcision as in the Bible story of Abraham and Ishmael circumcision at age 13 for Ishmael and the Arabs after him! Also Herodotus mentions many many other nations that practiced circumcision in his time not just the jews ( actually he never mentioned the jews as one of the people who practice circumcision in his time because they were not in Palestine then!) As I told you before you are still occupied by the your perceptions because most of you are jews or are impressed with the Controlled media ( by the way you can not use scholarly or media articles that don't present a reference that Palestine included Phoenicia! this is a strange claim and require a scientific reference not a media article written by a jew!? You should refer to Herodotus first not to interpretation. The dominant interpretation in scholarly archaeological studies ( like the Jstor article I presented and many others ) is that Palestine was seperate from Phoneicia! and between phoenicia and egypt ( clearly ending at El-Arish as my Herodotos ref shows). The current version of the article is a 4th grade alternative opinion, and showld not be mentioned alone but rather after mentioning the top 3 other dominant views ( the first one being Herodotus words without interpretation!!!), All this of course according to your Wiki rules that you terrorise every new person with75.72.88.121 (talk) 17:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've checked, and see that the passage here does indeed still refer us to How and Wells on Herodotus. You wish to remove it? It strikes me as innocuous. Most Wiki articles on ancient Israel are, to me at least, virtually unreadable, since they are written from a Biblical perspective, one known to have been patched up from clan myth cycles and oral lore mostly after the time Hoerodotus wrote i.e., and not from an archeological or comparativie perspective. The note seems innocuous to me, and useful in so far as it shows that the reality of the terrain was polyethnic, as were the Jews themselves, in the sense that the word Jew is used loosely to refer to what were, in high antiquity, a broad number of culturally and often ethnically distinct groups/tribes merging over time, and at times diverging. What we have in the OT is a very narrow clerical reworking, a creation of national consciousness, by a small elite, of traditions hailing from numerous clan, tribal and ethnic groups. All the commentators were saying then is that many of these local groups, Canaanites, Amorites, Kenites,Phoenicians, Egyptians, Greeks, Samaritans, were probably there, as were varieties of Jews, even those looked down on as polytheistic idolators by the Pharisees. But I have no strong objections either way Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Nishidani, I'm sure that you can appreciate why the ethnic identity of the "Palestinian Syrians" mentioned by Herodotus would be a major point of contention to the wider Palestinian-Israeli conflict. While some sources say they were Jews, others completely reject that conclusion. Given the polarity of opinion, I don't think we should mention anything about it at all, since there is no space in this article for that kind of discussion. My suggestion is to state simply that Herodotus uses the term "Palestinian Syrians" as an ethnonym for the people of the region, but that their ethnicity remains a subject of debate. We can then provide a link to the Histories (Herodotus), where a sub-section can be created that discuss this debate in detail. I'm not trying to deny Wikipedia readers informtion. I'd like to see a fuller discussion of the scholarship on the subject. Just not in the etymology of this article, where an extended analysis is inappropriate and where brief mentions would have to privilege the views of one or two scholars over the rest. Possibly misleading people into making conclusions that should not be made. Tiamuttalk 17:52, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand, in the light of the preposterous pettifogging we have seen in here by pro-Zionist editors, who militantly editwar to cancel out any suggestion that might intimate Palestinians have native rights in that area, that you are extremely wary of edits that can add in information the malicious might jump at to start another incendiary firefight. I find, as I think you do, that this obsession with racial origins rather bizarre, especially coming from certain quarters. We are all bastards, and the more mongrelization the better, and how people can think 'race', under its present euphemism of 'ethnos', important in identity is better left to psychiatrists. But since the pages on this area are so prepossessed by the idea of a special, unique, quasi racio-ethnic identity with Palestine based on mythographic narratives that speak of a single people, where the reality was far more promiscuous, I tend to think Wells and How's comment on the mixture of ethnic groups in the area salutary, a breath of fresh air. It is important not to be intimidated into excessive cautiousness from exposure to malicious editors with an ethnic axe to grind, but stick to the scholarship, whatever the consequences in other minds.
There are many commentaries on Herodotus and I chose one that is pre-Balfour. I don't think you will get anyone adding the material, and raising a debate, on this subject at the wiki Herodotus page, since H's refs.to Palestinian Syria/Palestine are nugatory. Still I won't press the point. Regards as always Nishidani (talk) 18:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
75.72.88.121 Please stick to verifiable facts, and refrain from vague ranting. If you have a point to make, make it succinctly, and cite for each point a scholarly source. Nishidani (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
sticke to the verifiable resources? which is what? not Herodotus? Herodotus is not verifiable? did not you read what Herodotus says. Can you show copy past the wording from How and Wells where they supposedly said that Palestine include Phoenicia as the current version of the wiki article say?

It is How and Wells that say that Palestine is separate from Phoenicia as the Jstor article says, and cherck this too: Herodotus here as in a number of other places distinguishes the Palestine Syrians from the Phoenicians (compare what he says in 7.89). [5] Also, Philo of Alexandria ( a jew) in 40 AD ( Roman period) says that the region where some jews and essenes dwell is called "palestinian syria) this is 100 years before Hadrian and inside the Roman period itself!? Actually the only STRANGE Claim that could be deducted from Herodotus is that Palestine is part of Phoenicia not Phoenicia part of Palestine as the wiki article current version says?? Enough is enough! This is gone too far, I could not find any where that Phoenicia is part of Palestine This a non existant strange claim reported Exclusively by Wikipedia, and it is inline with the Zionist propaganda that Palestine never existed only untill Hadrian75.72.88.121 (talk) 18:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously Tiamut you did not notice from the excerpt from Herodotus that he says that the Palestinian coast was in the hands of Arabians. You also fail to recognize that 450 BC was the period when Ezra was negotiating with the Ishmaelites (Arabs) to let him build a wall around Jerusalem. This is BEFORE the jews were to come back! Even after they came back from Babylon and diaspora only a fraction came back (1% of the population of Palestine) hardly noticeable by Herodotus in 450 BC ( even though Herodotous was BEFORE that 1% came Back!!! Judia was and is always a 10% of Palestine The closed enclave around Jerusalem which is in the west bank palestinian terotories.

There is no need for reference to show that in 450 BC there was no jews in Palestine or Judea to talk about ( by any body including Herodotus). The claim that Palestinian syrians were probably partly the jews is also a strange claim!!( ie nedd to be supported by two references from 450BC, curently don't exist)75.72.88.121 (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

History is fluid, full of lacunae, and often narrated by people with an ear for hearsay, legends and pseudo-historical romances. I think you are arguing at cross-purposes with us. Whatever, as dinner beckons, I will simply transcribe what Hows and Wells say on Herodotus Bk.3, 5:-
'The Palestine Syrians are here distinguished by H., from the Phoenicians (so too in ii.104): their lands also are distinguished in i.105 (probably), iii.91.1, and iv.39,2; in ii.106 he applies the term to include the coast north of Mount Carmel. But the most important reference is vii.89, where H.distinguishes the 'Syrians in Palestine' from the Phoenicians, and then goes on (2) to use 'Palestine' of all the coast land, including Phoenicia, 'as far as Egypt'. He never uses it of Phoenicia alone. Here he means 'Philistines', who were still powerful in his time (Zech.ix.5); it is true that he says they were circumcized (ii.104.3), but he says (ib.) the same of Phoenicians. Either the neighbouring tribes had begun to copy the Jews in this rite, or H. confuses the Jews and the coast peoples. He cannot have meant by the 'Palestine Syrians' 'the Jews' only, for they were at this time very unimportant.
The ancient geographers did not usually extend 'Arabia' to the Mediterranean, nor does H. himself in iv.39. He means here that the ends of the trade routes from Arabia to the Mediterranean were under Arabian control . .For the Arabs of South Palestine as dependent allies (not subjects) of the Persians cf.88.1 n.' How and Wells, pp.256-7. Regards Nishidani (talk) 18:55, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

How and Wells do not contradict Herodotus The phrase you refer to from How and wells is miss understood by you "and then goes on (2) to use 'Palestine' of all the coast land, including Phoenicia" Palestine of all the coast land ( means what it means that Palestine is part of the whole coast that also (the whole coast) include Phoenicia as well!!! Herodotus never said that Palestine include phoenicia, Herodotus book is available online and is in the greek language "This province (beyond the River (Euphretes))contains the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine" at [6]75.72.88.121 (talk) 19:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

This is what Zacharaiah 9:5 refered to by How and Wells ( as philistines in ((Zach IX,5)) says "Ashkelon shall see [it], and fear; Gaza also [shall see it], and be very sorrowful, and Ekron; for her expectation shall be ashamed; and the king shall perish from Gaza, and Ashkelon shall not be inhabited" There is no mention of Philistines in Zach9:5!! How mistakenly thought that since Pjilistines lived in Ashkelon and Gaza 500 befor Zachereiah then they must be still living in his time!! How is mistaken. However Herodotus mentions the Arabs many times as inside Palestine of Syria( a land between Phoenicia and Egypt), on the coast and inland in Palestine! , he also mentions the Samaritans who are Arabs and Aramaeans (cousins of Arabs) converts to Judaism, but never mentions Jews or Philistines(the sea people). Ezra (Ezra book the Bible) mentions how Ezra was unable to convince the Arabs of the city of Jerusalem! to let him build a wall around the city because they did not like walls and so they can take their cattle to the country daily with out having to cross a gate! Ezra was alone with no jews in Jerusalem then. Ezra as the bible says ( and as the existing! Persian documents say-he was historical figure not just biblical) was sent by the Persians as a minor official in Jerusalem only. It was 40-50 years after Ezra that an order of Xerexes 3 that ordered to built the temple and jews started returning after that! in 450 AD the time of Herodotus there were no jews in Palestine or Jerusalem for more than a 150 years and for another 50 years after Herodotus . It was impossile for Herodotus to describe a people who lived before his time by 150 years or more.75.72.88.121 (talk) 19:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I demand from Itsmejudith to allow me to change the part about herodotus to correct it as palestine between phoenicia and Egypt at Al-Arish and that Herodotus mentioned many times the Arabs inside Palestine and never mentioned jews, and also to cut the references to philistines and Jews as probably the Palestinian Syrians ( since this also a strange claim)75.72.88.121 (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You insist that How and Wells meant Palestine include Phoenicia while I insidt that How says Palestine part fof the whole coast of which phoenicia is a part too!/ And since you consider How and Wells is the Ultimate resource ( like I also do) then we should mention it that Arabs were there because Cadytis according to How and Wells is Jerusalem as the Arabic name of it Al-Kuds(Cadytis), and that the arabs from Cadytis to Al-Arish was in the hands of Arabins read Herodotus Herodotus 3.5 describes the egyptian borders: “the only clear entry pass into egypt is this: "from Phoenicia as far as the boundary of Cadytis is the country of what we called Palestinian Syrians; from Cadytis, a city that is in my judegement smaller that Sardis, to the city of Ienysus the seaports are in the posession of the arabians” again in this paragraph Herodotus also says the land of Palestinia syrians he already mentioned as Palestine of Syria (IS SEPARATE FROM PHoenicia!!! Lets add the How Wells claim that Cadytis is Jerusalem a name known of Jerusalem since ancient times and Not Jerusalem which is an invention of the rabbies found only in the Masoretic Bible which many Bible text critiques consider forfeited and or altered, Hence I ask Itsmejudith to add this not to the article Jerusalem (al-Quds) in wikipedia75.72.88.121 (talk) 20:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Somebody have wrote in wiki palestinians article that " Palestine in Herodotus meant GENERALY[5] all the coast including Phoenicia[6]"

In his reference [5] he mentions (5- With the exception of Bks. 1, 105; 3.91.1, and 4.39, 2. )!!! ie books 1 , 2, 3.9 and 4.39!!! But these are ALL the places where Herodotus mentions palestine minus his other ref [6] book 3 section 5 3.5 which is this! " "From the town of Posidium, ---, as far as Egypt - omitting Arabian territory, which was free of tax, came 350 talents. This province contains the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine, and Cyprus. This is the fifth Satrapy." (from Herodotus Book 3,5 8th logos. So how is it that Generally refers to only one place in Herodotus and the supposedly un-generally refers to ALL the many citations of Palestine by Herodotus!!!! even though ref[6] actually says that palestine is separate from phoenicia as the ref says??? these two citations should be from How and Wells not from Herodotus ( if we beieve that that somebody have the evidence that they said so, ie [6] and [5] references statements!!! According to Nashidani it is only according to How and Wells and NOT Herodotus that somebody and Nashidani DECIFERED How and wells sentence which actually says that Palestine is part of the whole shore that include phonecia), so how How and Wells says that Palestine include Phoenicia is beyond me???? the two references 5 and 6 (all citations of Palestine in the books of herodotus) says that Palestine is not phoenicia ( not part of phoenicia nor phoenicia part of Palestine but both Palestine and Phoenicia are part of the fifth Persian Satraby called ( Behind the River-Euphrates). The putting of the two refrences [5] and [6] to support that-somebody' claim is Pure cheating. He should mentions other ref from How( which we don't know still what it is , may be How and Wells? where this statement come from:(With the exception of Bks. 1, 105; 3.91.1, and 4.39, 2.), and how can ref [6] means that palestine include phoenicia even though you read it now above! I want these references same ones to support what is meant to support the general understanding that Palestine is not part of Phoenicia!!!75.72.88.121 (talk) 21:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


Here is also two more references affirm my demand one from the Jewish Encyclopedia itself:

"The name Palestine refers to a region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to the Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north. The word itself derives from 'Plesheth', a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as 'Philistine'. Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were ... most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities",

"Palestine includes the whole of the country between the River Jordan and the Mediterranean as well as the country immediately to the east of the Jordan. The word represents the Greek form, Παλαιστίνη, of the Hebrew (Ex. xv. 14; Isa. xiv. 29, 31; Ps. lx. 10 [A. V. 8]), although in the Old Testament is applied only to the land of the Pelishtim (), or Philistines, and hence denotes merely the coast district south of Phoenicia. It was the Greeks who began to denote the inland country as well by this term; such an application, by a foreign people, of the name of the coast to the interior is no rare phenomenon. As early as Herodotus, who is followed by other classical writers, as Ptolemy and Pliny, the phrase Συρίε ἡ Παλαιστίνη (Syrian Palestine, Palestine of Syria) denotes both the littoral and the neighboring inland region (Judea and Palestine), as well as the entire interior as far as the Arabian desert" "The region now called Palestine is the southern-most part of Syria, and is included between two lines drawn from the Mediterranean eastward—the lower from the southeast corner of the Mediterranean through the southern end of the Dead Sea, and the upper from Tyre to the southern foot of Mount Hermon. This portion of Syria has certain natural boundaries to justify its historical individuality [7] then the southern coastline was called by the Greeks “Palaestina”.

The place-name Palestine - which was reborn as a territorial name in 1920 - derives from the Latin Palestina, the name of the Roman province.

This, in turn derives from the Greek Palaistine (as used by Herodotus), which was derived from the Hebrew Pelesheth, land of the Philistines [8]75.72.88.121 (talk) 23:26, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Friend, unless you learn to read texts exactly, raise single points, one at a time, and suppress the temptation to stitch up a patchwork of assertions into a quilted tirade of truths and falsehoods, dialogue will be impossible. There is far too much that is simply wrong-headed, false or poorly phrased in your long posts for me to reply to. I will analyse just one remark:-
'And since you consider How and Wells is the Ultimate resource ( like I also do) then we should mention it that Arabs were there because Cadytis according to How and Wells is Jerusalem as the Arabic name of it Al-Kuds(Cadytis), and that the arabs from Cadytis to Al-Arish was in the hands of Arabins '
How and Wells is a reliable source. No source is an 'ultimate source'. Kadytis, variously known as Kardutos/Kanutis) according to How and Wells (Herod.(a)ii.159;(b) iii.5.1)is not Jerusalem, but Gaza, since (apud iii.5), it refers to a coastal city. The rest of the remark ('that the arabs from Cadytis to Al-Arish was in the hands of Arabins') is, in English almost meaningless. In historical terms, it is indeed meaningless.
Nearly every paragraph you write adds several new problems, like the one above. Nothing personal: it's a matter of treating interlocutors with respect. Nishidani (talk) 09:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

My demand is that this following paragraph:

"where it denotes generally[5] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[6] In expressions where he employs it as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine',[7] it refers to a population distinct from the Phoenicians, and thus probably Philistines, though it may also cover several other tribes and ethnic groups present in the area, including the Jews.[8]"

should be written like this:

"where it denotes [5]+[6] the coastal land between Phoenicia south of Sidon and Egypt at al-Arish, and when he speaks of the Syrians of Palestine he mentions only the Arabs[6][Herodotus 3.9, 3.5]

This is all that. simple and correct And How and Wells have the dominant view ( not the strange one!) that Cadytis is Jerusalem as its arabic name now (AL-Quds) see: Walter Wybergh How and Joseph Wells, in their influential Commentary on Herodotus [oxford u press 1989 A Commentary on Herodotus. With introduction and appendixes by W.W. How and J. Wells. Clarendon Press, Oxford, 1950. Reprint corr.impr. 1928. 2 vols] "As for Cadytis, these same authors note that it is only mentioned here and in iii.5.1 where H(erodotus) describes it as about the size of Sardis'. It has been identified with Jerusalem and its name explained as = 'the holy' (cf. the present Arab name 'El Kuds');" [9] more links http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-097X%28200102%29321%3C57%3AHDOTEM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-S&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage http://books.google.com/books?id=pACJYw0bg3QC&pg=PA554&lpg=PA554&dq=the+whole+of+phoenicia+and+that+part+of+syria+which+is+called+palestine&source=web&ots=GB1q34jw5C&sig=ZJSqU2aJgt0Duc835lRA5MxLxL0

Harry Thurston Peck. Harpers Dictionary of Classical Antiquities. New York. Harper and Brothers. 1898 says: Kadutis: A town of Syria, mentioned by Herodotus (ii. 159), supposed by some to be Gath, by others Jerusalem (El Kuds)!75.72.88.121 (talk) 13:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC) I am afraid I am not the one who says that How and Wells are considered the dominant scholarly view about Herodotus!! Nor did How and wells say that Palestine include Phoenicia, you just read it wrongly and possibly How and wells made a lingual grammer mistake. At any rate Herodotus is superior to How and Wells, and I showed you many articles from JSTOR Database and other places that almost all people understood Herodotus as he says that Palestine is not part of Phoenicia and that the recent jewish media article actually depended on non other than than this wikipedia article to pass this strange claim. Making Wikipedia as I explained many times more princely than the prince!75.72.88.121 (talk) 13:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


Dear Nashidani: I would like to remind you that the copy/past quotation from Wells was not from Wells and How but a commenter of How and Wells( hence we got somebody commenting on somebody elso who is commenting on Herodotus)

Even though this final comment still means exactly what Herodotus that Palestine is not part of Phoenicia rather between it and Egypt. I am sorry but you did not bring your proof! while I brought many so far!75.72.88.121 (talk) 14:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

User talk:75.72.88.121. A small point. One 'requests' or better still 'suggests'. One does not 'demand', in English, except when one speaks with a French accent. 'Demand' and 'demander' sont des faux amis.
You misrepresent How and Wells, who after noting that Cadytis has been identified with Jerusalem, and its name expained as = 'the holy'(cf. the present Arab name 'El Kods'), add:-

'But it is clear from iii.5 that Cadytis was on the coast, at the south end of the road from Phoenicia to Egypt; and H's comparison with Sardis, which may rest on his own observation, would certainly not suit Jerusalem, in the days of the humiliation after the return from the Exile. Gaza, on the other hand (certainly captured by Necho), was always an important station of the trade-route from Egypt to Syria'. 1936 Clarendon Press, Oxford vol.1 reprint p.247

I.e. you misrepresent the authors, and the case is closed.
You then say:

'Nor did How and wells say that Palestine include Phoenicia, you just read it wrongly and possibly How and wells made a lingual grammer mistake.'

Hows and Wells did not make a 'lingual' mistake, and if you think so, you are putting your foot into your mouth. Commenting on vii.89, where Phoenicians are distinguished from Syrians in Palestine, they note that the text at vii.2 'use(s) 'Palestine' of all the coast land, including Phoenicia, 'as far as Egypt'.' (vol.1 p.257). The passage on which this statement is based is as follows in the Ionian dialect of Greek Herodotus employs:

ουτοι δε οι Φοινικες το παλαιον οικεον, ως αυτοι λεγουσι,επι τηι Ερυθρηι Θαλασσηι, ενθευτεν δε υπερβαντες της Συριης οικεουσι τα παρα θαλασσαν. της δε Συριης τουτο το χωριον και το μεχρι Αιγυπτου παν Παλαιστινη καλεεται.

Rewrite Herodotus, emend his Greek, and put out a new edition, revised by yourself, of How and Wells. The actual texts say what they say, and mean what I, following the commentary, have said they mean. Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
You now write:'I would like to remind you that the copy/past quotation from Wells was not from Wells and How but a commenter of How and Wells.'
Untrue. I have my own copy of their work and transcribed it faithfully. If you don't believe me, ask me now to cite any page, or their remarks on any section of Herodotus, and I will give them to you, transcribed, within minutes. Regards Nishidani (talk) 14:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

How mentions two possibilities but indicate that Cadytis is Jerusalem is the strongest. and this is the impression of scholars.( it is the dominant opinion of How). You have brought a copy/past from the digital Perseus online where an unknoen summerizer is commenting on How. At any rate there is no place in any scholarly references online that Palestine include Phoenicia but very recent media articles that base their writing on the wiki article here. . I have presented many online citations about Herodotus that mentions the original dominant opinion that Palestine is not phoenicia and it is between phoenicia and Egypt ( just like current palestine ) I demand instead of request is because the article here is corrupted beyond belief. I demand that Itsmejudith request an expert intervension through profnet.com or other places. Your copy/past of "But it is clear from iii.5 that Cadytis was on the coast, at the south end of the road from Phoenicia to Egypt; and H's comparison with Sardis, which..." is also not from How but from a commenter on How!. To summerize: 1- Palestine is that part of Syria (Aram) that is between phoenicia and Egypt. 2-Herodotus mentions no people in Palestine other than the Arabs ( in severla places inside Palestine. Ezra from the bible also mentions that only Arabs were in Jerusalem and around (his people did not come back yet). This is the case then it should be mentioned as thus: Herodotus verify the existance of Palestine as it is now and through the ages, and he verifies that no other than arabs were in Palestine as he swa it!!!!. No need for guessing about who else might had been there then because there wasn't but the Arabs, and makes it an original opinion since nobody reported about the period but Herodtus and any commenter was not alive then! To Nishidani, what is the exact wording from How and Well book where it says that Palestine include Phoenicia??? what is the exact phrase?. What you have reported is from Pereus Digital Online in which some unknown person is summuryzing (severly) the work of How and Wells?!

Even the phrase you brought from Persues online says "palestine of the whole shore that include phoenicia) This doesn not mean that Palestine IS the Whole shore, but that Palestine IS FROM the whole shore.


Herodotus says the Fifth Satrapy ( Beyond-the-River-Euphretis-Satrapy incluses the Coastal strip from "From the town of Posidium on the border between Cilicia and Syria, as far as Egypt - omitting Arabian territory, which was free of tax, came 350 talents. This province contains the whole of Phoenicia and that part of Syria which is called Palestine, and Cyprus"[10] or under the fifth satrapy in [11] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.88.121 (talk) 04:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

IP editor your edit removed cited information hence reverted .Please explain why you are removing cited information before removing it.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 06:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As this whole section explains" to mention that that Plaestinian syrians were probably jews is a mockery of the truth. Herodotus never mentioned jews or Israelites, but he mentioned Arab 56 times and mentioned Arabian peoples 13 times ( many inside of Palestine). To add the citation from How and Wells commentary book on Herodotus in which How wonder of the possbility if jews were in those syrians (a strange claim by How) can not be used as a top level reference from Herodotus!! If It had to be mentioned then it should be added that Jews (according to same How) were very unimportant then ( because they were in Babylon at that time in 450 BC as How implies to the fact) Hence you can't ignore the 56 Herodotus references to Arab and Arabian in his book and talk about the strange suggestion by How!!!! This article about Palestinians not the jews.and the Herodotos reference is talking about Palestinian Syrians as Canaanites and Arabs only ( no mention of jews and israelites) it is possible some of the Syrians were the Samaritans ( aramaens (ie canaanites who converted to judaism ). According to Wikipedia you need to present TWO References for a strange claim and the reference to Jews and philitines in the paragraph is strange ! Is is strange or not(not mentioned by Herodotus) ? does it need two references or not), lacking another reference it should be removed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, what you apply on me should be applied on any body else75.72.88.121 (talk) 07:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Please consult WP:V again. It does not say that extraordinary claims require two sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:44, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Obviously you re not reading my complaint here in discussion , it seems I will have to be writing for ever here until the concensus member committee meet again!! It is a strange claim that Herodotus never mentioned Jews or israelites but mentioned Arabs 56 times and Arabians 13 times, yet on the article all what we get from herodotus about Palestinians in 450 BC is that they might been jews or philistines (philistines in 450BC). Obviously you are skewing the info anyway possible to forge the truth. The truth is that Herodotus never mentioned jews and israelites but mentioned arabs. How and wells book commentary just question the possibility ( an alternative opinion even by How and wells). Yes you need two unrelated refs otherwise it should be removed ( the sentence about jews and philistines in Herodotus. and the ref to how should be removed. since it serves no porpuse but to present the faint suggestion of jewish or philistines (sea people) in 450 BC when every body knows that jews in that period were still in Babylon. This is the time when Nehemia and Ezra were still negotiating with arabs residents of Jerusalem to let them build the wall. I would like to suggest that this article be written by palestinians not isarelis or British people, since they caused the diaspora and tormented the palestinians, and cause a lot of conflict in editing this article, I suggest that antipalestinians and other opinions be placed at the bottom under a section titled alternative opinions theories fancy claims etc= where they can argue forever with other weird ideas minded persons. This article for example spend most part of it about the difinition of palestinians ( antipalestinians claim that jews are palestinians and the british occupation was representive and legal in giving citizenships. It is like giving the white american settlers half part in writing about native americians (how they are red indians savage unchristian etc ect) This article is plagued by debates between two sides of postgraduate people. It does not help the layman who wants to know something about Palestinians to read "the first endogemic use !!!!) This article is a turn off for people seeking first introductory info (ie what encyclopedia should give) about things.abubakr (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't answer harangues. I have a degree and postgraduate studies in classical Greek, a substantial library of primary and secondary texts in that language, and English is my mother tongue, though I am not English: my forefathers were part of the diaspora that followed the English genocide and dispossession of the original inhabitants of Ireland over centuries. You're in a hectic hurry to get somewhere, and, in that haste, are kicking and lashing out wildly, indeed imcomprehensibly, at fellow companions on the same trail. If you reflect on this absurd contretempts with some detachment, I will welcome your comments. If you persist in ranting, distorting English texts through ignorance of grammatical niceties, and continue to make inferences about my reading habits (perseus etc) which are preposterous, then we have nothing more to say to each other. Best wishes.Nishidani (talk) 14:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Who are Palestinians

I would like to request sharpening the article by distansing it from the debate between anti-palestinians and pro-palestinians.

First the article start with three terms where the third term is different from the first two and that they are used (as in the past tense) to describe same people ( not same people!)as ( the arabic speaking people who have family relations in Palestine!?). This is not true that any body that has family relation in palestine is palestinian( this then will include all the jews in Isreal plus their few million relatives who are jews and Non-jews!!). It also includes millions upon millions of relatives of palestinians who are not palestinians from all over the world and many arab countries!. A person can learn arabic in six months these days ( and millions of Israeli jews already speak arabic!). The Palestinians are the people who lived in palestine up to the 1917 invasion by (the overseas-foreign-imperial-gold-seeking-country of Britian!) and all their descendents from 1917 till now. This excludes all the people who were brought into Palestine by the illegal British occupation force and later consequences like the Israel state. Palestinians thus include residents of palestine until 1917 ( and their current descendents) including many non arabs (few hundred samaritans, few hundred jews till 1917, few thousand gypsies and bosnians and turks and greek and armenians etc) and also include people who did not speak arabic as a first language ( like those minorities mentioned above). Now this is the difinition that the world knows us Palestinians by, They know that Israelis are not the palestinians!, You know: when the word Palestinians is heard in the news, an eskimo man doesn't jump up in his bed because he thougth they mentioned him!?, not the same to an israeli person!!? The world know exactly who are the palestinians and to be more clear they call us terrorists in the jewish media( they iclude all palestinians who are resisting the illegal occupation of Israelis this include arabs, non arab moslem palestinians like chechens or turks, the Palestinian non-muslem (arab or non arab) christians, These ( the terrorist palestinians or just plain palestinians ) are the people who lived in Palestine untill the invasion of Britain ( an arch ancient enemy of Palestinians since times immemorial, from the sack of Jerusalem in 1099 on all muslims and christians of its inhabitants, passing through the killing of 10000 palestinians in acre by Richard the Lion Heart of England 90 years later!, passing by endless number of battles between the two parties ( yes Palestinians and British!) since then till 1917 and then through the british occupation from 1917 till 1948 in which thousands of palestinians and British lost their precious lives in 1936-1939, and in every year of the occupation!) So lets stop the fuzz about who is palestinian and when they were started to be called palestinian OK? Palestinians also include the people who were deported by the British from 1917 and 1948 like the Grand Mufti of Palestine and the Sacred Mosque of Jerusalem!!!try palestinians deport the high Anglican Bishop in Glaxbury!?)( obviously british are ilegal representives for the palestinians!) The article jump to the next subject etymology to repeat the argument all over again: the question of who was called palestinians in 2000 BC or not.or in 1930 or not This is As "If Native Americans were not called literally native americans (in English) or (Red Indian in English ) in 10000 BC then they do not qualify to be native americans or be a nation or a people!??. the insistance on the need to using the term Palestinian back in History is absurd. The Native americans did not call themselves native AMERICA!!ns or red INDIA!!ns ( for india and america are terms from the old world never heard of before in the new world inhabitants!! We know that Phoenicians did not call themselves Phoenicians ( rather Aram) and the Syrians did not call themselves Syrians ( rather Aram) but it was names given to them by then a slave mercenary men of sea known as the Greek or Ionians! who accompanied Alexander as slaves literally!!( bonded by their wives and sisters) According to how this article goes, it emphacise the superiority of a name to qualify people to become a nation or a people, even though this is not mentioned by any Historical scholars so far, and gives a person who convert to a religion at a moment of time a sudden instant inclusion in a nation?( like the jews) In talking about palestinians we should start by defining who they are as the inhabitants of a geographically closed bordered area as palestine borders and from there we talk about what they have and have not of the six essences of a nation or people as defined by the David Miller article in azure as I reported few posts back, or any ligitimate agreed on other than david miller. But to spend all the article on a debate of a high tier of unknown references ( who are mainly abrupt in the time of history). We should add that palestine refered to the land known as Canaan, and replace the map which is not as arabic geographer said because it added part of east of jordan river ( nabataean desrt of arabia) which never happened in Arabic times or Roman times! but only to a part of east of the jordan at the top north which was called the Jordan administrative in arabic times and palestina iii IN ROMAN TIMES, but the current state of Jordan was always part of Arabia then named arabia nabataea. It was England the abrupt-illegal-foreign entity that made the huge inclusion of the jordan state area into palestine in around 1920 that never happened for 10000 years before!!!. I would finally suggest a firsm difinition of palestinians as the people who were living in palestine up to the british invasion 1917 and their current descendents wheather they were still inside palestine or outside! this is just two lines. and then ignore the story about when they were started to be called palestinians since this is not a part of the tenents of being a people or a nation.abubakr (talk) 08:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I changed the phrace that roughly half of the palestinians continue to live in Palestine( instead of Mandate of Palestine which is a political temporary terminology different from Palestine which never included the current state of Jordan area since ancient times).

I also changed the difinition of Palestine in its page to mean palestine not the mandate of palestine which is something completely different)abubakr (talk) 10:28, 19 February 2008 (UTC) To Mr Jacoobo: Jordan is part of British mandate palestine!!, British mandate Palestine is a temporary political assignment not a geographical or historical difinition of Palestine! If you go to mideastweb.org you see that the map of Palestine stayed the same since Canaan times (between the sea and the jordan and dead sea river!) never a part of the desert or land east of the dead sea was a part of palestine!. Only a small part of Jordan state east of the river jordan at the top most north was considered part of Palestina section III in roman times (byzantians only) and in Arabic times (Jund Jordan) check the maps of palestine in that website (through the ages)!! British brief occupation of the area ( stale faced anglosaxons on the soon to drawn island somewhere in the north west of the earth, has no bearing on the history and geography of the world, since they are hardly themselves to b